MotoHouston.com MotoHouston.com
Register Members List Member Map Media Calendar Garage Forum Home Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MotoHouston.com > General Discussion > General Discussion (Moto Related)
Forgot info?

Welcome to MotoHouston.com! You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access to the community. By joining our free community you will have access to great discounts from our sponsors, the ability to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content, free email, classifieds, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join our community!

Register Today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.


FREE MH Decals by MAIL!

Advertisement

Reply
Share This Thread: 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
Old 04-18-2014, 08:59 PM   #41
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthTexas View Post
Interesting posts on the TC Bevo and Classax. I need to learn more about TC and how it effects performance. My bike had the TC set at 17. I didn't even take the TC into consideration. I have never ridden a bike with TC and figured, like most bikes, it was all about the gearing, rpm's, and speed. I appreciate your comments. I need to learn about TC and the impact of it's settings on performance. Thanks.
Perhaps this will help. TC cuts power up to 40% on level 20 when it senses or predicts a wheel slip condition. On the lower levels the intervention is less often and less of a reduction in power.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	TractionchartRX.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	85.5 KB
ID:	77842   Click image for larger version

Name:	TractioncontrolRX.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	104.3 KB
ID:	77843  
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Old 04-18-2014, 09:07 PM   #42
Bevo
Hook 'em!
 
Bevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston-The South Loop
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 24,322

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 3

Bike(s):
'12 CBR1000RR Red/Black
'14 CB1000R Matte Gray
'10 CBR1000RR (destroyed)
'09 CBR1000RR C-ABS (sold)
'09 CBR600RR C-ABS (sold)

Member Garage





I test rode a GSXR1000 last year and it was in some lame mode, it was weak as , had them turn it off and the bike came alive
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
"I lack skillz"
Bevo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 09:16 PM   #43
SouthTexas
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 11












Thanks Classax. I'm not so sure I like TC anymore. I am big on riding within limits and I don't like the idea of a force altering my ride. I have to believe that since racers use it, once it is 'fully' understood it is good and an advantage but . . . I need to learn more.

Thanks a lot.
SouthTexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 09:32 PM   #44
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,981

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







A good tcs will only save you when you step over the thin line. Otherwise you won't notice it. Unfortunately the 1190's can only predict a wheelie or loss of traction, not actually detect slipping.
ArkansasDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 09:44 PM   #45
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
A good tcs will only save you when you step over the thin line. Otherwise you won't notice it. Unfortunately the 1190's can only predict a wheelie or loss of traction, not actually detect slipping.
Actually it does, there is a wheel speed sensor on the rear. It checks rear wheel rpm, crank rpm, gear selection, throttle position and vehicle speed as inputs.

With advent of high output light wieght bikes some of these machines would approach being unridable without the rider aids in place. The EBR approach to design is to mechanically ensure that the machine can put the power it produces to the ground with as little electronic wizardry as possible in order to enhance the ride not make it possible. No I don't work for them but I have been a fan of their design philosophy for a long time.
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 09:54 PM   #46
Mace
Wisdom
 
Mace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belton
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 232

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
Honda ST1300 Iron # 44260
honda silverwing. drag scooter
Honda DNO1 700, wife's bike
07 SV650 Track
12 R6 (Son's track bike






Quote:
Originally Posted by Classax View Post
Guess I'll way in here.
There are 20 levels of traction control. 20 is for off road (gravel or ice) 3 and below is for a dry track. Above that the TC predicts wheelie conditions and limits them. Turn it off and the bike become a BIG handful.

The sweet spot is from 5 to 9.5K. The power is in the middle not the top. The test ride I was on I could hear at least two bikes who were to high in the band when they tried to make a pass. The route we took today wasn't enough to really open the bikes up.

The thing I noticed and ultimately lead to my purchase in terms of performance is, the bike does ever feel scary fast. I rode an RSV4 today as a demo and the thing about it was it was visceral. It felt like it was making scary power, sounded like was making scary power, pointed to the sky like it was making scary power, but for all that, the speedometer wasn't climbing scary fast. The EBR will wheelie if you ask(tc on >4 and all the time with it off) it but it prefers to fire down the road. I thought it was soft too until I noticed I was arriving a lot faster into and out of corners. A few friendly side by side accel against a 2013 CBR1000rr , 2011 R1 and an 2013 HP4 have convinced me the set up seems to feel soft but the speedo tells a much different story. It doesn't feel scary and I was used to being somewhat scared to let me know I was going fast. I would also note not one of the demo bikes has more than 1k on the clock yet, and I found the bike much like the RSV4 to really open up after 2K. I'm happy with and I think I have proven, even with my +240lbs, it can more than keep up with most.
Traction control aside. You gave a great write-up of a 06 Ducati 999 Testastretta. Oh wait, I mean a EBR 1190.
Mace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 10:01 PM   #47
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,981

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







So there can't be slipping between the rear wheel and the chain, that should mean the crank rpm should always match the wheel rpm for the given throttle and gear. The vehicle speed is done with the rear wheel as well? So it wouldn't know that it's not actually going the right speed. Even your pictures posted above say for "estimated wheel spin". Which left it estimating wheel spin in first gear leaving a stop light at normal traffic acceleration. I'm sure at lower levels it doesn't interfere as much but I didn't like it and only have an interest in riding it on the track where it was meant to be.
ArkansasDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 10:21 PM   #48
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Fair enough, a motorcycle is a very personal thing, one that must fit one's life, riding and sense of styles. I have never liked the Panigale anytime I ride it, despite having owned a Diavel. While I love the engine, the RC8R never seemed to fit me ergonomicly. To each their own.
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 10:26 PM   #49
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,981

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







I'm not trying to put down the EBR just saying I wish they put a better tcs system and that I got a demo ride on the track. Sitting and getting baked in traffic was not my idea of fun. The few twisties I rode on were fun.

The one I rode had the rear brake pedal stuffed underneath the case cover. Are they all like that or is yours actually useable?
ArkansasDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 11:02 PM   #50
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
I'm not trying to put down the EBR just saying I wish they put a better tcs system and that I got a demo ride on the track. Sitting and getting baked in traffic was not my idea of fun. The few twisties I rode on were fun.

The one I rode had the rear brake pedal stuffed underneath the case cover. Are they all like that or is yours actually useable?

I would suggest you guys actually book a date to ride the demo bike when can plan your own routes. I think the TC is actually quite workable. I rode the bike set up for Corey West and the TC was on 3 like mine, but like I said before, my bike seemed to really open up at the 2k mark.

The pedals are close to the bike. I ride on the of my feet all the time, and I tuck my size 47 EUR's close to the bike to avoid losing any part of them. Longer/wider pegs are available if you like. Mine work fine, I don't need to see them to use them.
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 11:04 PM   #51
Mace
Wisdom
 
Mace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belton
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 232

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
Honda ST1300 Iron # 44260
honda silverwing. drag scooter
Honda DNO1 700, wife's bike
07 SV650 Track
12 R6 (Son's track bike






Quote:
Originally Posted by Classax View Post
Fair enough, a motorcycle is a very personal thing, one that must fit one's life, riding and sense of styles. I have never liked the Panigale anytime I ride it, despite having owned a Diavel. While I love the engine, the RC8R never seemed to fit me ergonomicly. To each their own.
Yeah, your right about that, I have owned some ugly bikes and loved them all. I was talking about the engine characteristics. I like the V twin and the V four. Man do you ride a Buell now? TWS (Texas World Speedway) a couple of weeks ago.
Mace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 11:15 PM   #52
bumblebee
Yeah I'm flippin' YOU off
 
bumblebee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pearland
Feedback Rating: (3)
Posts: 12,270


Bike(s):
'74 Suzuki GT380
'82 XS650 StreetTracker
'10 Ducati Streetfighter
'83 Yamaha Seca 900






Quote:
Originally Posted by Classax View Post
Yea its the last of the analog bikes. Erik Buell is not a big fan of rider aids, and the bike is designed to minimize the need for them. Even with the ultra short wheel base and 165hprwh on the HSBK dyno it accelerates well. I would say its a bit over geared. May be drop a tooth on the front and it would be more rawkus. I find myself riding much faster and smoother because there just isn't much drama. It's sneaky fast instead of scary fast. You have to be really hamfisted to create situations where it tries to bite you(tc on). Turn off the TC and you can lay waste to a rear tire out any corner. I'll be at MSRH and TWS (Texas World Speedway) next month so the my lap times should separate the feel from the facts as to whether I faster on it or not.
+1 That's how it felt to me. Several times I found myself going faster than it felt after brief, hard throttle.

BTW it was nice to meet you today. I didn't realize you were a MotoHoustonian, lol
__________________
Asphalt is for racing... dirt is for growing potatoes. - J. Diester
When seconds count... the police are only minutes away.
Grow up and be a productive member of society already.
Bevo- "I lack skillz"
bumblebee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 12:43 AM   #53
magzx12r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Feedback Rating: (5)
Posts: 1,500












Quote:
Originally Posted by Classax View Post
Guess I'll way in here.
There are 20 levels of traction control. 20 is for off road (gravel or ice) 3 and below is for a dry track. Above that the TC predicts wheelie conditions and limits them. Turn it off and the bike become a BIG handful.

The sweet spot is from 5 to 9.5K. The power is in the middle not the top. The test ride I was on I could hear at least two bikes who were to high in the band when they tried to make a pass. The route we took today wasn't enough to really open the bikes up.

The thing I noticed and ultimately lead to my purchase in terms of performance is, the bike does ever feel scary fast. I rode an RSV4 today as a demo and the thing about it was it was visceral. It felt like it was making scary power, sounded like was making scary power, pointed to the sky like it was making scary power, but for all that, the speedometer wasn't climbing scary fast. The EBR will wheelie if you ask(tc on >4 and all the time with it off) it but it prefers to fire down the road. I thought it was soft too until I noticed I was arriving a lot faster into and out of corners. A few friendly side by side accel against a 2013 CBR1000rr , 2011 R1 and an 2013 HP4 have convinced me the set up seems to feel soft but the speedo tells a much different story. It doesn't feel scary and I was used to being somewhat scared to let me know I was going fast. I would also note not one of the demo bikes has more than 1k on the clock yet, and I found the bike much like the RSV4 to really open up after 2K. I'm happy with and I think I have proven, even with my +240lbs, it can more than keep up with most.
Where are the pics? Been waiting on the ride review for a while. I guess you have been busy riding I talked with you a while back in the parking lot at Mancuso. I got rid of the Panigale. Glad you are enjoying the bike.
__________________
Mark
magzx12r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 03:51 AM   #54
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
+1 That's how it felt to me. Several times I found myself going faster than it felt after brief, hard throttle.

BTW it was nice to meet you today. I didn't realize you were a MotoHoustonian, lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by magzx12r View Post
Where are the pics? Been waiting on the ride review for a while. I guess you have been busy riding I talked with you a while back in the parking lot at Mancuso. I got rid of the Panigale. Glad you are enjoying the bike.
Nice meeting you as well Bumblebee. I'm also a Youth Pastor so its hard to make most of the Sunday rides but I'm around.

Magzx12r- I have never come to grips with the Panigale. Beautiful but more like an I4 than a twin. Its really light but always seems so frantic for any given speed you may be doing.
It prefers a i4 riding style as well. I think the 999,1098,1198 were the best Ducatis. The 1199 may well be a better motorcycle but it lacks the classic Ducati feel.

I am writing a owner's reveiw of the 1190RX. I wanted to get some miles on it first, get passed the honeymoon period, so I can give an objective review of what its like to own instead of the ususal ride reveiw. To sum up the ride, its very much llike a 1198 with more power.

Last edited by Classax; 04-19-2014 at 03:55 AM.
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 07:44 AM   #55
Neon Samurai
3090 MotoGP Champion
 
Neon Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kings Landing
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 3,221

Experience: 10+ years

Bike(s):
2010 Ducati Streetfighter (sold)
2012 Triumph Speed Triple R
2008 Triumph Sprint ST (Sold)
2014 BMW s1000R
2012 Aprilia Tuono (sold)






Good seeing you guys today. I came.from a.s1000r test.ride..
.well i left with that.bike.
__________________
ASSASSINO
Neon Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 08:03 AM   #56
texlurch
Official MH tag inspector
 
texlurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Smack dab in the middle of Colo
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 10,236

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 1

Bike(s):
04 ZX-10R
02 ZX-12R BOTM 12/11
00 ZX-12R
07 GSXR 600
00 TL1000R BOTM 07/12 (sold)

Member Garage





v-twins (depending on tune) are a totally different feel compared to an I-4
I notice on the TLR it feels slow because I am waiting for the punch of an I-4 powerband.. then I hit the limiter and look down and doing tiple digits.
Just doesn't have that "speed" sensation.
__________________
sig pic
A wise man once told me: "No matter how fine she is, just remember. Somewhere, someone is tired of her !"
.
.... Home of the "Black Ninja's"
texlurch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 09:26 AM   #57
magzx12r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Feedback Rating: (5)
Posts: 1,500












Quote:
Originally Posted by Classax View Post
...To sum up the ride, its very much llike a 1198 with more power.
Nice.
__________________
Mark
magzx12r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 09:29 AM   #58
magzx12r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Feedback Rating: (5)
Posts: 1,500












Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon Samurai View Post
Good seeing you guys today. I came.from a.s1000r test.ride..
.well i left with that.bike.
Tell us more about the S1000R.

Edit: Just saw your thread on the new bike.
__________________
Mark
magzx12r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2014, 09:23 AM   #59
Classax
Objective Observer
 
Classax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 502

Experience: 8 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2014 1190RX

2013 Ninja 300
2012 636 (sold)
2012 Diavel (sold)

Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
v-twins (depending on tune) are a totally different feel compared to an I-4
I notice on the TLR it feels slow because I am waiting for the punch of an I-4 powerband.. then I hit the limiter and look down and doing tiple digits.
Just doesn't have that "speed" sensation.
Not to try a proselytize anyone but there are a couple of technical reasons for why this occurs, that are easily addressed.

The throttle cam profile is much larger on i4's because they don't make as much bottom end, so in order to achieve the bottom end torque needed the cam is generally larger resulting in more gas for a given amount of twist than a comparable vtwin. Net result is a more aggressive sound and feel from the I4. With that you also get a throttle that requires much more finesse to operate. The smaller throttle cam lets you be more precise at the expense of a longer throw and more sedate feel even though you could be making much more power at lower levels of throw than comparable i4. For example the S1000rr throttle cam is 20% larger than an 1190RX. The RC8R is also 15% larger but people went to G2 progressive cams to try and calm that 'under powered' V2 down. An R1's cam is 20% more and a CBR1000RR's is a whopping 22% larger. Someone used the throw on those bikes might confuse the longer throw on this bike for it being down on power in comparison, when in reality you aren't asking it for as much power to begin with. Since the bike comes with a great set of adjustable rearsets stock, its no biggie to drop the $150 to add the larger 10% cam to 1190RX or a quick turn throttle and you can get the same sensation of touchy throttle response as other machines.

Every bike has a sweet spot in the power band. For safety reasons("You're on a bike you've never ridden before, with people you've never ridden with before, and you don't know where you're going and I have no way of knowing you're experience levels") the Demo Employee from EBR told every one to keep bikes around 4k, which is good for 65(the fastest he went) in 4th, which gets great fuel economy. You still have the torque to go WFO and pass or keep up with anything from as low as 2.5K(50 in 6th), but the sensation is uninspiring even though the speedo says you should be arrested. Sneaky fast. When I'm in the mood for fun I keep the bike at or just above 6k and it will wheelie if I crack the throttle WFO in any of the first three gears and get light in the front in 4th. In the top two gears 6K is knocking on the door of 100. Crack the throttle from there and you're in the 150's before it feels like you're even doing 110. At times its brutally quick, more than a few times I've gone to pass and was shocked to be going WAY faster than I intended or expected. On the 1190RX and RC8R for that matter, you get rewarded for being an active rider. You can be lazy and try to ride the HP or you can be aggressive and ride the torque. If find the latter more active style to be a ton of fun. Keep the motor simmering(no need to boil) and its instant gratification.

Bevo mentioned he felt like he had to slip the throttle at launch, I thought so at first too. The reality is it took about 400 miles to get used to the fact that it has the bottom end to launch from a stop without any slip and just gas. Don't slip and it will happily but aggressively run up to 30 in 1st with just the gas. It took me a while to realize the friction zone is really narrow but I had my lever adjusted for more travel than really needed. Really slow starts are easy just with the clutch. I rev the motor when doing so because the clutch is vacuum assisted and the feel becomes very precise and pull lighter with a few rpm on the clock.

The TC only cuts power in predicted wheelie in 1st-3rd or detected wheel slip conditions. You have full power until it intervenes. It intervenes at certain wheel speed,motor rpm, throttle and gear position ratios in progressively smaller amounts to 0 for wheelie control and any spikes between rpm or motor rpm vs throttle position for wheel slip. Meaning at constant or even opening the throttle if the motor or wheel rpm spikes faster than or over calculated thresholds it will take steps to bring it in line with the norms. Having ridden MV's F3 and F4 its far less intrusive and far more transparent. Having ridden Aprilia RSV4 its not as smart but manages to pretend to be as intuitive. Meaning on the lower setting below 10 you can still spin the rear up with a good amount of control. Unlike the systems above this will happen because you specifically are trying to and not nearly as much accidentally when you DON'T want or expect it to. Aggressive riding and TC at >7 will leave darkies out of corners but, on the street its simply too much as your speed builds too quickly to be safe. Destroys tires as well. Don't ask me how I know. The geometry of the bike is designed to limit wheelies and put as much power down as possible. That said the wheelbase is only 55 so it can only do so much. Power wheelies can be summoned in 1st-4th with TC at 6 or below and with greater frequency and less provocation the lower the setting. Turn off the TC and the bike is still fairly easy to ride, but being aggressive without the TC turns it into a machine you start to worry is trying to bite you just about all the time.

Just my thoughts as I get to know the bike more. Like I said to me it feels like someone managed to shove a hopped up 1198 motor in a 250 chassis. Not a bad thing at all!
Peace!!!

Last edited by Classax; 04-21-2014 at 09:25 AM.
Classax is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked this post:
Old 04-21-2014, 09:28 AM   #60
Pachuco
So fly, I need feathers
 
Pachuco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston (Proper)
Feedback Rating: (6)
Posts: 3,823

Experience: 6 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
1098s
S4RS
SC1000
999s
996 sps

Member Garage





Send a message via Yahoo to Pachuco
Unfortunately it's still a buell.
__________________
Stuntin like Jet Li, boat houses and jet ski's
Pachuco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Advertisement


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.


MotoHouston.com is not responsible for the content posted by users.
Privacy Policy