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Old 07-12-2013, 10:00 AM   #161
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thats a lotta reading but idk I had fun didnt see anything wrong but obviously heard a lotta negative stuff. Ima go again lol
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:03 AM   #162
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Cody, thanks for the write up. I appreciate hearing the whole story and will likely not attend another TD with Extreme.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
I went into more detail on another forum, I'm just going to copy and paste it here:

Extreme seems like a pretty poorly run organization that compromises safety in the spirit of cheap track days. The track marshal let out 3 L2 guys, with stickers twice the size of Ride Smart, into L3. Not once, but twice.

The second time ended with sending a buddy of mine to the hospital with a fractured pelvis, broken arm, and bike in PIECES. Ohlins forks snapped right off the bike.

The CWer's they had looked like they had never seen a track before. I had never seen them. A couple of them looked to be 12-14 years old. Multiple calls over the PA were made just to get them to come back to get them to the corners before the day started and after lunch ended.

Then, they didn't have enough. Remember T9 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) during the last CMRA round there? 22 crashes. Guess what turn had no corner worker in it?

When my friend wrecked, I made it known to James, the owner, and a few different staff that I would take care of his stuff and to please let me know of any updates or issues and I'd be more than willing to help. When he left in the ambulance, word was a broken or dislocated hip. After a couple hours, the word was a broken finger and some bumps/bruises, so I kind of laid off knowing he was okay.

At the end of the day, having never spoken again with any of the staff about the status of my friend, I asked them where he was at. For 30 minutes I tried to find anyone that knew...knocking on RV trailer doors, etc. I finally found James and was told he was taken to CS Med. I had called them and they said they didn't have him. Whatever. I went to CS Med hoping it was just a mix up. It wasn't. They didn't have him and recommended calling St. Joseph's.

I called St. Joseph's and was transferred to the critical care unit. That's when I knew something was up. They asked me to bring his phone since they haven't been able to get a hold of his family. I already had his phone with me and made my way over. Come to find out, he has broken his pelvis in 3 places and broken his arm (both bones). At the time, they didn't know if he'd need surgery - thankfully he will not.

At this point, I was pretty frustrated. I had told the owner and some of the staff to please let me know of any updates or if they had any issues. Come to find out, they DID call his emergency contact, but never actually made contact with anyone. They never found out where he was. They never found out anything, nor did they really accomplish anything.

I've talked to the rider that was hit and of course the rider that hit him (that went to the hospital). Basically, what happened was the rider in front was a L2 rider in the L3 session by mistake. Being repeatedly spooked by close, fast passes, he was going pretty slow and I'm assuming on his way in. Myself and the other rider were coming out of T11 and saw him all the small straight before T12. He was approximately 8' from the outside of the track. Not wanting to come up on the inside of a slower rider, Pawel and myself stayed on the race line to pass him on the outside. About that time, the slower rider turned around, shifting his body weight to the right and I'm assuming putting input on the right hand bar, causing his bike to move right and close the gap that the other rider had already committed to taking. He was probably going around 110, the rider in front around 50-60. He was able to get on the brakes for a half second before the collision, sending him over the bars on impact. I was close enough behind him to get my bike / helmet covered in fork oil, but was luckily able to veer right to avoid contact.

To me, this is the result of a number of things. The track marshal should have been paying better attention. When you have 3 guys who go out together with huge stickers on their bikes in a grid of maybe 15 people, you should notice it and not let them go out. I'm not saying all other organizations are immune to this, but 1 guy in a group of 40 riders is a little different that 3 guys in a group of 15.

But it doesn't stop there. Things get past the TM, it happens. That's why we have CWer's. No one noticed or said anything the first session that this group went out in L3. It wasn't until the next time they went out that one of the riders came to pit in because of getting buzzed on the inside. He went to the TM and about that time, he heard the call come over about the wreck.

No classroom and inexperienced CWer's/TM caused this to happen IMO. If you're a new rider and there's not someone there to reiterate, ride your ride, don't look back, the faster riders will get around you if you're predictable - these things don't get remembered. It's not even about instruction at this point, it's about the rules of the track.

So if safety and an apparent lack of concern for hospitalized riders isn't enough - I'm going to move on to people that are flat out lying.

It has been said that these riders were black flagged and those black flags were ignored. This is coming from the owner of Extreme. Well, that's not true. NONE of the 3 riders saw the black flag. We were close enough to the rider that got hit that I would have seen someone in T10 walking back to their station with a black flag. Being an experienced rider, instructor, CW, and TM - I'm always looking for stuff like that. It didn't happen. Not to mention, this was the SECOND SESSION it happened in.

The owner also said the rumor about the broken finger got started because he was told that by track management. Having worked with the track manager when I track marshaled for Track Tactics, I had his email, so I emailed him. In a politically correct way, the track manager said he never said that and that extreme's owner was lying.

"That information is not accurate. I do not have a status on any injuries, sorry."
"James' memory is incorrect. We do not diagnose, we can only tell him what the likely injury was."

Between the lack of safety, lack of concern for transported riders (how would you feel if your kid was in ICU for 10-12 hours before you found out?), and the blatant lying that seems like an obvious attempt at covering up a poorly run event - I will not be back.

Track Tactics is holding an event there for $100 this month. RideSmart holds events at TWS (Texas World Speedway) for $105 for licensed racers through their CMRA discount. The $10-15 you save with extreme isn't worth the risk you take in terms of your safety. If you want the lighter grids, go with LSTD and pick up a CW credit that typically gets sold for around $110. All these programs have been doing this stuff for years, have people running the event that know what they're doing, have instructors that know how to teach you to get better while being safer, and have good TM's and CWer's that know what they're doing. I'm not saying that none of these organizations don't have bad wrecks, even the CMRA last weekend wasn't immune to it - what I am saying is these organizations all put weight on safety and go through certain measures to ensure things like this dont happen.

After being at this event, I know now I take for granted how smoothly all these other schools run. I know there's complaints here and there about trivial things - but when you're laying in ICU because of the negligence of an organization, it makes all these other issues seem petty.
-Cody
I think its a pretty good review to consider for riders.....personnaly i rather pay a little more and have a better organization running the show.....Mixing level 2 with 3 at multiple occasions is a no no!
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:51 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
story
A few responses:

1. CWers who don't know anything happens. A lot. That's not specific to extreme. That's what you get when you don't have paid staff. It's gotten better over the years, but I can disctinctly remember a time in very recent memory when CWers were mostly riders wives/girlfriends who barely understood what a motorcycle was. Any comparison between CMRA...a race org...and a trackdays CWers is totally unfair.

2. WTF was a L2 guy doing looking behind him? Shame on the grid marshall for letting them out, but shame on a L2 rider for looking behind him! This is what I meant when I said people make mistakes. However, there's nothing about how extreme, in particular, ran the day that could have prevented human error of this nature.

3. No shame on the CW for not catching the stickers. I can't think of a single org who's stickers are all so drastically different that you can pick out groups when they're going by at 50mph.

4. As to Extreme "not caring about transported riders." I've heard this several times about several orgs. , I've heard it from my best friend's wife when he broke his collarbone cuz the org wouldn't tell her anything (they asked me to). But really, they're bound by regulation. They CAN'T care like you'd want them to. Why? HIPAA.







Note: I am in no way affiliated with extreme or any trackday org. I'm just a guy who's done altogether too many trackdays at the novice and intermediate levels so I have a unique prospective on the groups who need the most guidance and crash the most frequently.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:08 AM   #165
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Wow, alot of reading, I believe any new organization will go through growing pains, sounds like it could have been ran a little better, im sure after reading all the comments that they will take the measures to make their organization better...Hoping people will return.. Or it will be Grand Opening... Grand Closing..
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:38 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
A few responses:

1. CWers who don't know anything happens. A lot. That's not specific to extreme. That's what you get when you don't have paid staff. It's gotten better over the years, but I can disctinctly remember a time in very recent memory when CWers were mostly riders wives/girlfriends who barely understood what a motorcycle was. Any comparison between CMRA...a race org...and a trackdays CWers is totally unfair.

2. WTF was a L2 guy doing looking behind him? Shame on the grid marshall for letting them out, but shame on a L2 rider for looking behind him! This is what I meant when I said people make mistakes. However, there's nothing about how extreme, in particular, ran the day that could have prevented human error of this nature.

3. No shame on the CW for not catching the stickers. I can't think of a single org who's stickers are all so drastically different that you can pick out groups when they're going by at 50mph.

4. As to Extreme "not caring about transported riders." I've heard this several times about several orgs. , I've heard it from my best friend's wife when he broke his collarbone cuz the org wouldn't tell her anything (they asked me to). But really, they're bound by regulation. They CAN'T care like you'd want them to. Why? HIPAA.
1. Not as much anymore. I'm not saying there's never a CWer at an organization that doesnt know what they're doing. I am saying there's never 80% of the CWer's that have no idea what they're doing.

2. This goes back to no classroom. You can't expect newer riders to know all the rules. That's why repetition is key. If you hear it enough, you start doing it. It's not even about teaching someone how to ride. Open track is fine, but ALL riders must know the rules and recommendations of the track.

3. Having track marshaled, I assure you, people catch stickers. Nevermind the fact that the stickers extreme issued were twice the size of a typical Ride Smart sticker. And even if there were NO STICKERS, you should be able to tell the difference between a L3 rider and a slow L2 rider.

4. Bullshit. Organizations have and continue to give a status on transported riders. They are allowed to let people know who was transported, where they were transported, and what their condition was when they left the track. They cannot speculate, but they can relay what the EMS tells them. I corner work, I track marshal, I instruct, and I've help put stuff together for organizations when they were new (to Texas at least). This isn't something I'm making up. You think organizations make you put an emergency contact down for and giggles?

As an organization, you have an unspoken responsibility to make sure a transported rider has their stuff packed and their family made aware. I made sure his stuff was packed and everything was taken care of. All they had to do was let me know where he was at. There's nothing anywhere that says they can't do that. I'm not saying they have to visit them in the hospital, but at a minimum, they should at least know where he was taken to.
-Cody
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:38 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerjunkie View Post
Wow, alot of reading, I believe any new organization will go through growing pains, sounds like it could have been ran a little better, im sure after reading all the comments that they will take the measures to make their organization better...Hoping people will return.. Or it will be Grand Opening... Grand Closing..
All it took was someone to go to ICU...
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:51 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
4. Bullshit. Organizations have and continue to give a status on transported riders. They are allowed to let people know who was transported, where they were transported, and what their condition was when they left the track. They cannot speculate, but they can relay what the EMS tells them. I corner work, I track marshal, I instruct, and I've help put stuff together for organizations when they were new (to Texas at least). This isn't something I'm making up. You think organizations make you put an emergency contact down for and giggles?

I've done all of that except instruct, cuz I'm slow. And you know what? I've seen the BEST organizations call an emergency contact and say "<riders name> has been transported, but that's all I'm legally allowed to tell you." No mention of where, no mention of how serious the injury was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
As an organization, you have an unspoken responsibility to make sure a transported rider has their stuff packed and their family made aware. I made sure his stuff was packed and everything was taken care of. All they had to do was let me know where he was at. There's nothing anywhere that says they can't do that. I'm not saying they have to visit them in the hospital, but at a minimum, they should at least know where he was taken to.
-Cody
As an organization you are legally bound to NOT provide medical information to people without express permission of the individual.

Secondly stuff packed? That's a joke, right? After 50+ trackdays just in Texas alone, I have NEVER seen a trackday representative EVER assist in the packing of a crashed rider's gear.........ever. It's always particpants lending a hand in the pits. And that's not a slight against trackday orgs, they have a trackday to run, I don't expect them to offer this service. Kudos to the brotherhood of trackday riders for picking up the slack.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:52 AM   #169
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Quote:
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All it took was someone to go to ICU...
Yeah, that is sad to hear about that, for their sake I hope they really learn from this account and refine their methods so that no one else gets hurt in this manor. I hope your friend recovers well from this incident.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:27 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I've done all of that except instruct, cuz I'm slow. And you know what? I've seen the BEST organizations call an emergency contact and say "<riders name> has been transported, but that's all I'm legally allowed to tell you." No mention of where, no mention of how serious the injury was.
Literally never heard that before. Ever. Having been ridden a lot with both Ride Smart & LSTD, every time I've asked about a rider I was told what the EMS said and the one time I asked where they were transported to (other than this one) I've been told.


Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Secondly stuff packed? That's a joke, right? After 50+ trackdays just in Texas alone, I have NEVER seen a trackday representative EVER assist in the packing of a crashed rider's gear.........ever. It's always particpants lending a hand in the pits. And that's not a slight against trackday orgs, they have a trackday to run, I don't expect them to offer this service. Kudos to the brotherhood of trackday riders for picking up the slack.
Absolutely not a joke. Had I not been there, there was no one else at the track that knew the downed rider. Let me be clear, I am not bashing Extreme because I packed their stuff. I said that they have a "responsibility to make sure a transported rider has their stuff packed". Whether it be friends (95% of the time) or the organization's staff. I have seen instructors for RideSmart pack someone's stuff AND take their bike home for them. I have seen LSTD load people's stuff before.

Lastly, po-po, I don't mean any of this as an attack towards you nor do I have any ill feelings for you expressing your feelings and view points, just as I have expressed mine. It just so happens that your views that are in opposition to mine are wrong (kidding)
-Cody
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:47 PM   #171
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I can't speak for what happened last weekend, bc I wasn't there. But I know Cody, quite well. And if he says it happened that way, then I have no reason not to believe him. I also know the rider that was transported. He is a seasoned rider, and would have made adjustments had he had time to. As for the rider that he hit, I know he probably feels terrible it happened, and I know he wouldn't have caused any problems intentionally, and I'm glad he is okay.

I will however speak specifically about the Ride Smart TM's/CW's. I have been TM'ing for 3 years, and have been managing the CW's/TM's for 2 years, and personally schedule them for each event. We have minimal requirements that must be met in order to work (which was inplemented when I began this position). CW's must have ridden a minimum of two TD's to CW, or have previous track-side CW experience, with very little exception (and those are my call, on an individual basis). TM's must be seasoned CW's with a proven record of knowledge, communication, and understanding of what needs to be done and when. New TM's are hand-picked by me, and trained at the grid, shadowing either me, or another seasoned TM. If I do not have a CW w/TM experience/training signed up to work that event, I will make the drive and do it myself. I have sacrificed my own track time or weekends more than once, bc safety and a well-run grid is my #1 priority. We also have a zero-tolerance policy for CW's that no-call/no-show, and they must be alert and watching at all times. We don't have this problem too often though, bc of the requirements to work in the first place.

I don't control the grid sizes, but I do handle what I CAN control. And although no org is perfect, and things happen and can slip through the cracks, it's important to have experienced staff to catch them and fix issues as quickly as possible. I can tell you our TM's and CW's are great at watching for unsafe behavior, level stickers, etc. Because I know every single thing that happens is impossible to be seen by everyone, I/TM's also speak at the riders meeting and ask if riders see anything concerning, to report it to the TM IMMEDIATELY, so we can take care of it quickly. I am very proud of the job our CW/TM's do. They are all great!
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:35 PM   #172
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Quote:
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Literally never heard that before. Ever. Having been ridden a lot with both Ride Smart & LSTD, every time I've asked about a rider I was told what the EMS said and the one time I asked where they were transported to (other than this one) I've been told.
LSTD was the org that would only tell my best friend's wife that he was transported and nothing else. Pam was nice enough to find me and tell me to call her because she was hysterical. I don't see this as a bad thing at all, they were following the letter of the law. It sucks, but it's totally out of the org's hands.


Quote:
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I have seen instructors for RideSmart pack someone's stuff AND take their bike home for them. I have seen LSTD load people's stuff before.
I think you're just one of the cool kids, and are noticing special treatment. I've packed wrecked bikes up of friends from both orgs without anyone from the org offering to lend a hand. Once again...I wouldn't expect them to. They've got a trackday to run.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:51 PM   #173
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Quote:
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Have you corner worked? Do you know how boring L1 is to watch? (attempt at being funny here, not calling you out or anything).
of course I have worked corners - track days, CMRA, TMGP. I was only pointing out the absurdity of that last comment you made implying that low pay for CWs somehow necessarily leads to less competent workers or a less safe environment for riders.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #174
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absurdity? Since when is it absurd that good pay attracts good workers?
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:35 PM   #175
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I'd offer the following.

1. It is a new org. They will probably work the bugs out. Candace even mentioned the CW situation was improved upon her arrival at Ride Smart. I know about the early "instructors" RideSmart started with early on in their development...it was a joke what was needed to qualify to get a jersey. It's MUCH better now without question, but early on, not so much. Give them a break for not being a well oiled machine. All orgs early on have these issues as they figure out what works for them.

2. So a rider went to the ICU because someone made a mistake...the horror. It happens at ALL orgs. Not a reason to not go back with any group. It sucks, but it is a risk we all take when we get on the track with those we don't know well. I just hope both recover fully.

3. All orgs have room to improve. I've NEVER heard Dave or any other Ride Smart representative explain during a rider's meeting how to properly enter and exit the track at any event I've been to with Ride Smart and it is a pet peeve of mine. It is one of the MOST dangerous things to do at a track (enter and exit the track). At the last TWS (Texas World Speedway) Ride Smart event I rode at, some dipshit pulled out of pit out and immediately crossed the blend line (like 4-6 foot). This was in Level 3 and it was a Level 1 mistake. I reported it to Candace when I came in and it was hopefully addressed, but if it was covered in the rider's meeting, it probably wouldn't have happened.

This should be done at all rider's meetings with EVERY org. It may be covered in classrooms, but I don't go to class at Ride Smart nor have I been told I am required to. If someone wants to see it done properly, go listen to MacMan give his same, consistent speech he gives at EVERY riders meeting with LSTD.

4. As for the comment that the CW "should have known" based on the slower level two rider being off pace...I've been to plenty of other events with various orgs that someone is off pace. It usually gets addressed, but sometimes it someone trying to move up and then they figure they shouldn't have. A few laps or even one session doesn't always define it as an issue. , the cut off for some

5. Medical information. Anyone in the medical field knows about HIPAA. Technically, you are not allowed to give out any info on anothers condition without their explicit permission. You can actually be fined per occurrence (as a healthcare provider) for doing so. Truth is, if I get sent to the hospital, I don't want my specific condition discussed with anyone publicly unless I give an update. There is fallout to that regarding my job, my family, and other aspects that are mine to protect.

6. I appreciate your view Cody, but the reality is; happens at track day events and racing where people make unintentional errors. All orgs have growing pains; it's not right to try to torpedo them just because you are fortunate enough to participate with orgs that have already had the growing pains behind them (mostly).

For the record, I have no allegiance to any org. I like having options, and I hope they (Extreme) improve and do well. To me, they are basically offering the same as member track day access similar to some tracks.

No hard feeling toward anyone with this post. Just my 0.02.

Hugs and kisses,

Mongo
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:42 PM   #176
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Go to the track they said....
It's safer they said...

Heh, anyways...so many things that contributed to this could have easily been avoided. Shame.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:58 PM   #177
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Well said Tojo!!!

I <3 LSTD!!!!!!!!!! MacMan and his gang have it figured out...spend a little more, get a QUALITY TD with the majority of participants being level headed individuals. I think their slightly higher fees equate to a more mature level of participants too. Just my observation. that's my plug. Can't wait to do a couple of days later this year with them...waiting for the temps to fall before I spend my hard earned money.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:34 PM   #178
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absurdity? Since when is it absurd that good pay attracts good workers?
and yet you hold CMRA up as an example of quality workers, when they don't pay appreciably more than the $50 you mentioned.

(I think the CMRA and the established TD organizations I've personally been to the track with generally have done a very good job, btw.)
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:56 PM   #179
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:06 PM   #180
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I was there riding in level 3.

Here's my perspective for what its worth. I've been riding TWS (Texas World Speedway) since before track days existed. Only way on to the track was race. You got the morning warm up sessions & then you were going racing. Steep learning curve back then.

Things are much better today. I thought Ride Smart was clueless back in the day. These guys were just as bad, but aren't hopeless. I could tell from the rambling riders meeting what was in store. I would still do another day with them because one thing hasn't changed. The only person looking out for your safety is you. Corner workers are like cops & are there to clean up after the deed. The responsibility of a clean pass is on the PASSING rider.

It sucks your friend got hurt. I will agree that those guys definitely did not belong in L3. When I came up on them I saw the difference in speed & slowed up to stay behind them for a few turns checking them out. Then passed them on the inside & got the away from them.

A TD is not a race. When you see a 50 mph closing speed on another bike you should know something is up & slow up. If he didn't see that closing speed, then he wasn't paying enough attention. The only person that I would blame a crash on is myself for not avoiding it. Sounds arrogant but that attitude has let me live through 20 years of riding & racing without ending up in a hospital
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