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Old 07-12-2013, 05:10 PM   #181
supadupa
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As far as cmra having the best CW's...........

I was at a race at TWS (Texas World Speedway) of all places. A guy had a horrific crash on the straight after the horseshoe. The rider was unconscious, but the corner workers in the turn were all asleep.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:46 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supadupa View Post
I was there riding in level 3.

Here's my perspective for what its worth. I've been riding TWS (Texas World Speedway) since before track days existed. Only way on to the track was race. You got the morning warm up sessions & then you were going racing. Steep learning curve back then.

Things are much better today. I thought Ride Smart was clueless back in the day. These guys were just as bad, but aren't hopeless. I could tell from the rambling riders meeting what was in store. I would still do another day with them because one thing hasn't changed. The only person looking out for your safety is you. Corner workers are like cops & are there to clean up after the deed. The responsibility of a clean pass is on the PASSING rider.

It sucks your friend got hurt. I will agree that those guys definitely did not belong in L3. When I came up on them I saw the difference in speed & slowed up to stay behind them for a few turns checking them out. Then passed them on the inside & got the away from them.

A TD is not a race. When you see a 50 mph closing speed on another bike you should know something is up & slow up. If he didn't see that closing speed, then he wasn't paying enough attention. The only person that I would blame a crash on is myself for not avoiding it. Sounds arrogant but that attitude has let me live through 20 years of riding & racing without ending up in a hospital
I hate it, but I have to agree a little bit. I'm all about getting good laps in and working on my times, but it's never with a close call for me. There were a lot of things wrong, but I will always sacrifice the lap vs taking a chance on my own/my bike's safety. I was in 3 as well, and stayed way clear of those guys. It's a terrible incident, but was avoidable.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:36 PM   #183
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A TD is not a race. When you see a 50 mph closing speed on another bike you should know something is up & slow up. If he didn't see that closing speed, then he wasn't paying enough attention. The only person that I would blame a crash on is myself for not avoiding it. Sounds arrogant but that attitude has let me live through 20 years of riding & racing without ending up in a hospital
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:18 AM   #184
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I find it interesting that in most responses to the big write up, the TD org's owner lying about the condition of the rider to cover up the severity of his injuries has been glossed over.

Accidents happen, and things can improve.

People who lie to cover up their mistakes will never be willing to accept the repercussions of their actions; that is the real issue here.

Riders being out in the wrong level, poor organization of CW's, and poor communication can all be avoided and / or improved upon--the dude lying about the riders condition cannot and should not be forgiven, nor overlooked; THAT portion of this situation should be the first thing that is considered when this organization is concerned.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:11 AM   #185
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bottom line

I have ridden with most all the large track day groups, RideSmart, Lonestar, Sportbike Track Time, Nesba.... Each has is strong points, good days, and bad days. A lot of how well a track day goes is how well the riders respect the rules and each other. Someone posted on this thread that a TD is not a race. That is the truth. People come to track days to have fun. Each group has rules, its the riders that break them...

However, at the end of the day, after all the and moaning, if it weren't for these track day groups, we would all be sitting at home with a finger up our wishing we could get on the track....Bottom Line!
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:19 AM   #186
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However, at the end of the day, after all the and moaning, if it weren't for these track day groups, we would all be sitting at home with a finger up our wishing we could get on the track....Bottom Line!
Well....not ALL of us, hay (yes, intentional) , whatever you enjoy to fill your day...good for you.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by supadupa View Post
I was there riding in level 3.

Here's my perspective for what its worth. I've been riding TWS (Texas World Speedway) since before track days existed. Only way on to the track was race. You got the morning warm up sessions & then you were going racing. Steep learning curve back then.

Things are much better today. I thought Ride Smart was clueless back in the day. These guys were just as bad, but aren't hopeless. I could tell from the rambling riders meeting what was in store. I would still do another day with them because one thing hasn't changed. The only person looking out for your safety is you. Corner workers are like cops & are there to clean up after the deed. The responsibility of a clean pass is on the PASSING rider.

It sucks your friend got hurt. I will agree that those guys definitely did not belong in L3. When I came up on them I saw the difference in speed & slowed up to stay behind them for a few turns checking them out. Then passed them on the inside & got the away from them.

A TD is not a race. When you see a 50 mph closing speed on another bike you should know something is up & slow up. If he didn't see that closing speed, then he wasn't paying enough attention. The only person that I would blame a crash on is myself for not avoiding it. Sounds arrogant but that attitude has let me live through 20 years of riding & racing without ending up in a hospital
while i completely agree, in this case i have to disagree.

no, its not a race and i wasnt racing. i had asked cody to follow and critique me, we were only third session, taking it easy hitting apexes and maintaing a line.
where the accident happened, i and cody had over 8' gap from edge of track to rider, coming up on left turn. cody agrees that if he had been in front he would have attempted the same outside pass on the rider even with his speed so low, there was plenty room and an inside pass would have been dangerous.
the rider looked behind him and 8' turned to 1 foot in a split second. im the kind of person whose not cocky or wanta pass everyone, im the guy that holdsoff on a pass if its even close to sketchy. i know u dont know me and believe what you will, but in this case i feel i did everything correctly and what is expected in lvl 3, and an unfortunate line of circumstances led to almost losing my life.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:25 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojo92 View Post
I'd offer the following.

1. It is a new org. They will probably work the bugs out. Candace even mentioned the CW situation was improved upon her arrival at Ride Smart. I know about the early "instructors" RideSmart started with early on in their development...it was a joke what was needed to qualify to get a jersey. It's MUCH better now without question, but early on, not so much. Give them a break for not being a well oiled machine. All orgs early on have these issues as they figure out what works for them.

2. So a rider went to the ICU because someone made a mistake...the horror. It happens at ALL orgs. Not a reason to not go back with any group. It sucks, but it is a risk we all take when we get on the track with those we don't know well. I just hope both recover fully.

3. All orgs have room to improve. I've NEVER heard Dave or any other Ride Smart representative explain during a rider's meeting how to properly enter and exit the track at any event I've been to with Ride Smart and it is a pet peeve of mine. It is one of the MOST dangerous things to do at a track (enter and exit the track). At the last TWS (Texas World Speedway) Ride Smart event I rode at, some dipshit pulled out of pit out and immediately crossed the blend line (like 4-6 foot). This was in Level 3 and it was a Level 1 mistake. I reported it to Candace when I came in and it was hopefully addressed, but if it was covered in the rider's meeting, it probably wouldn't have happened.

This should be done at all rider's meetings with EVERY org. It may be covered in classrooms, but I don't go to class at Ride Smart nor have I been told I am required to. If someone wants to see it done properly, go listen to MacMan give his same, consistent speech he gives at EVERY riders meeting with LSTD.

4. As for the comment that the CW "should have known" based on the slower level two rider being off pace...I've been to plenty of other events with various orgs that someone is off pace. It usually gets addressed, but sometimes it someone trying to move up and then they figure they shouldn't have. A few laps or even one session doesn't always define it as an issue. , the cut off for some

5. Medical information. Anyone in the medical field knows about HIPAA. Technically, you are not allowed to give out any info on anothers condition without their explicit permission. You can actually be fined per occurrence (as a healthcare provider) for doing so. Truth is, if I get sent to the hospital, I don't want my specific condition discussed with anyone publicly unless I give an update. There is fallout to that regarding my job, my family, and other aspects that are mine to protect.

6. I appreciate your view Cody, but the reality is; happens at track day events and racing where people make unintentional errors. All orgs have growing pains; it's not right to try to torpedo them just because you are fortunate enough to participate with orgs that have already had the growing pains behind them (mostly).

For the record, I have no allegiance to any org. I like having options, and I hope they (Extreme) improve and do well. To me, they are basically offering the same as member track day access similar to some tracks.

No hard feeling toward anyone with this post. Just my 0.02.

Hugs and kisses,

Mongo
1. I'm not concerned about it being as much of a well oil machine as I am of it being safe. Especially now, there are tons of people that have knowledge of track days, how they work, and how to keep them safe. Instead of hiring them, they hire bands and wrestling midgets at ECR...think I'm making that up?

I understand that a new organization has growing pains, but you can't NOT put safety first. You can't put CWer's on the track when only one has experience. At the least, you have to have someone instructing them on how to do their job. I didn't sit in on the CW meeting, but I have a feeling it went something like this "let me know if you see a wreck"

2. I've said a few times that I understand wrecks happen. I'm saying that if you make multiple errors as organization that contribute to that wreck, that's when I draw the line. Then, lie about it to cover your in the case of their owner? up.

3. LSTD has their rider's meeting together for sure. I still laugh at the buy a bigger bike joke, despite having heard it over and over again...lol. L3 riders do not have to go to class for Ride Smart. Level 1 and 2 is mandatory though.

4. if you see a slower rider, you radio it in. Even L1 does it. We obviously can't bump them down, but we can put an instructor with them. After it gets radioed in, those riders are addressed around the track as they pass by the CW stations. Level stickers most certainly get noticed. There's been a few times where I've let a rider out in a different level for one reason or anything (legitimately) and the corner workers almost always pick up on it if I don't let them know.

5. That doesn't even matter at this point. The fact is the owner DID give out FALSE medical information. End of story. Pawel was sitting in ICU and he said he had a broken finger. Whether or not it should be released is different. But if you call a hospital and ask, they will let you know if someone is there. When I TM, I ask the EMT's where they are transporting to and they tell me. I guess they don't know much about the medical field.

And no offense taken

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
Well said Tojo!!!

I <3 LSTD!!!!!!!!!! MacMan and his gang have it figured out...spend a little more, get a QUALITY TD with the majority of participants being level headed individuals. I think their slightly higher fees equate to a more mature level of participants too. Just my observation. that's my plug. Can't wait to do a couple of days later this year with them...waiting for the temps to fall before I spend my hard earned money.
LSTD puts on a great show. Tom has helped me A LOT as I've progressed. Another one of their instructors helped me out a ton when I made a noob mistake and ran out of brake pads at ECR. He had an old set that he gave me for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tankmonkey View Post
and yet you hold CMRA up as an example of quality workers, when they don't pay appreciably more than the $50 you mentioned.
I'm really not even going to address this. CMRA pays a little more, provides lunch, you get into the races for free. So you're actually getting $60 cash and $20 in perks. But you also get the experience of having the best seat in the house to actual races. The same reason CotA was able to get free CWer's. People CW at CMRA because they ENJOY it and get paid for it (aside from the people that are just fulfilling prov novs). No one CW's at a TD because they enjoy it...the only factor IS money. And not enough of it will get you CWer's. I have nothing else to say on this. It's pretty simple and it just seems like you're trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonbones View Post
I find it interesting that in most responses to the big write up, the TD org's owner lying about the condition of the rider to cover up the severity of his injuries has been glossed over.

Accidents happen, and things can improve.

People who lie to cover up their mistakes will never be willing to accept the repercussions of their actions; that is the real issue here.

Riders being out in the wrong level, poor organization of CW's, and poor communication can all be avoided and / or improved upon--the dude lying about the riders condition cannot and should not be forgiven, nor overlooked; THAT portion of this situation should be the first thing that is considered when this organization is concerned.
You're right, although I still maintain the ground work of running track days should be focused on keeping it safe FIRST. That revolves around good instruction of on track etiquette, an experienced track marshal that can explain to inexperienced CWer's how to do their job correctly. And to make sure there are ENOUGH CWer's. 22 crashes in T9 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) during the CMRA sprints and they had no one watching it. Unacceptable. They would rather spend the money on a band when there were more people in the band in the audience instead of spending money on quality personnel.

I didn't spend the money to go to this event to come back and 'bash' them on MH. I'm all for cheap TD's, but there are standards I have as a rider. Safety is always first with me, and I will not ride with an organization that doesn't have the same priority. Every instructor was new at one point or another, I'm not complaining about that. But you can't learn as you go every time there's an accident. How many accidents will it take before they take it more seriously? If they're willing to lie about black flagging and the rider's injury, what else will they do to cover up their ?

-Cody
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:47 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
22 crashes in T9 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) during the CMRA sprints and they had no one watching it. Unacceptable.
Unfair comparison as it was a very specific weather condition that was only present on the ONE DAY that this occured. Honestly, the fact that you even bring this up (because not a single trackday org this season has added coverage in that turn since the CMRA event. To add more evidence, no trackday org even runs the air fence that CMRA does in that corner), it calls into question your authority to make many of the other statements regarding this issue.

We get that you don't like the way extreme runs things. We get that your friend was injured so you feel you need to torpedo the company as a means of revenge. But come on, keep your attacks within the realm of reasonability.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:53 AM   #190
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Cody,

Thanks for the responses.

I am still on the fence about the accusation about the owner lying. I DO believe that you are stating what you see as fact, I do not question your integrity here at all. I do question whether or not they lied or just simply had bad info. You yourself nailed it, they were unorganized. I can see information not being transmitted accurately by their "team" as it were. Still sorting the details out, having the realization that someone got a ride in the box with lights, and more than likely some challenges on "What to do now?" in the heat of the moment. Ever play telephone?

In light of safety concerns, are you going to try to get Ride Smart to implement covering how to properly enter and exit the track at rider's meetings? Not all Level Three riders worked their way up in the Ride Smart environment .

All could use the reminder; sometimes the fast guys are the worst offenders.

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Old 07-15-2013, 10:28 AM   #191
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With MacMan, the thing that he says that always sticks out in my head is..

"Even if you hear THE HOUNDS OF screaming behind you, don't look back, keep your line and let the guy pass you safely"

*or something like that* lol
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:29 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
I'm really not even going to address this. CMRA pays a little more, provides lunch, you get into the races for free. So you're actually getting $60 cash and $20 in perks. But you also get the experience of having the best seat in the house to actual races. The same reason CotA was able to get free CWer's. People CW at CMRA because they ENJOY it and get paid for it (aside from the people that are just fulfilling prov novs). No one CW's at a TD because they enjoy it...the only factor IS money. And not enough of it will get you CWer's. I have nothing else to say on this. It's pretty simple and it just seems like you're trolling.-Cody
oh, jesus. someone dares disagree with you and they must be trolling?

I can't dispute that *most* people working corners would prefer to watch racing versus a TD. (but I would argue that the largest non-prov-nov pool of CW participants with CMRA are probably significant others and family, and a bunch of them would prefer not to CW at all if they could get away with it... )

But again, my point is that your assertion regarding the compensation is off the mark. this isn't trolling - you are trying to factor in non-monetary comp for CMRA CWs but ignore the same for TD CWs.

Even if I agree to your valuation of $80 worth of compensation for CMRA, that still doesn't compare to the $150 or so in like-kind compensation you get from a typical, established TD org - the typical deal is (as I'm certain you are quite aware) that CWs get 1 TD for each day CW they do.

I'll check the math again, but I' pretty sure $150>$80. Based on your reasoning, CMRA may have some work to do in this regard. (yes, I'm kidding here.)

but there I go again, trolling with the facts...
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:36 AM   #193
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but there I go again, trolling with the facts...
F'in accountant...go add some numbers up somewhere and quit trying to be logical. Can't you see we are having an emotional conversation.

It's not about the nail...

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Old 07-15-2013, 10:38 AM   #194
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oh, jesus. someone dares disagree with you and they must be trolling?

I can't dispute that *most* people working corners would prefer to watch racing versus a TD. (but I would argue that the largest non-prov-nov pool of CW participants with CMRA are probably significant others and family, and a bunch of them would prefer not to CW at all if they could get away with it... )

But again, my point is that your assertion regarding the compensation is off the mark. this isn't trolling - you are trying to factor in non-monetary comp for CMRA CWs but ignore the same for TD CWs.

Even if I agree to your valuation of $80 worth of compensation for CMRA, that still doesn't compare to the $150 or so in like-kind compensation you get from a typical, established TD org - the typical deal is (as I'm certain you are quite aware) that CWs get 1 TD for each day CW they do.

I'll check the math again, but I' pretty sure $150>$80. Based on your reasoning, CMRA may have some work to do in this regard. (yes, I'm kidding here.)

but there I go again, trolling with the facts...
Also cmra has 2 corner workers at each station. And they have more corners being worked. So they are obviously paying out more by making it safer.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:45 AM   #195
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:46 AM   #196
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:55 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Unfair comparison as it was a very specific weather condition that was only present on the ONE DAY that this occured. Honestly, the fact that you even bring this up (because not a single trackday org this season has added coverage in that turn since the CMRA event. To add more evidence, no trackday org even runs the air fence that CMRA does in that corner), it calls into question your authority to make many of the other statements regarding this issue.

We get that you don't like the way extreme runs things. We get that your friend was injured so you feel you need to torpedo the company as a means of revenge. But come on, keep your attacks within the realm of reasonability.
Every organization puts a CWer in T8. T8 overlooks T9. T8 also has a lot of run offs since it's a blind corner. If someone ran off (straight off in T8, which happens quite often. guilty of it myself) and went down, the likelihood of T7 or T10 seeing them is slim to none. There's actually even a cliff there if you go far enough. I know I've heard one person found that out the hard way.

Sorry if I made it sound like I wanted a CWer IN T9, that was not my intention...much like there's no CW in T11, but it's still T10's responsibility.

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Cody,

Thanks for the responses.

I am still on the fence about the accusation about the owner lying. I DO believe that you are stating what you see as fact, I do not question your integrity here at all. I do question whether or not they lied or just simply had bad info. You yourself nailed it, they were unorganized. I can see information not being transmitted accurately by their "team" as it were. Still sorting the details out, having the realization that someone got a ride in the box with lights, and more than likely some challenges on "What to do now?" in the heat of the moment. Ever play telephone?

In light of safety concerns, are you going to try to get Ride Smart to implement covering how to properly enter and exit the track at rider's meetings? Not all Level Three riders worked their way up in the Ride Smart environment .

All could use the reminder; sometimes the fast guys are the worst offenders.

Mongo
James said TWS (Texas World Speedway) management told him something, when I asked TWS (Texas World Speedway) management about it, they said it wasn't true....someone is lying.

Several people, even part of the organization, and even the TRACK MARSHAL said their was no black flag when I asked him on Sunday. Why James is so adamant that they were out for a full lap and ignored is beyond me. Seems to me he should've asked his staff - specifically, the track marshal - before he said that. Honestly, who else besides the track marshal would you ask to find out?

Seems like more than just a coincidence.
-Cody
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:04 AM   #198
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.
James said TWS (Texas World Speedway) management told him something, when I asked TWS (Texas World Speedway) management about it, they said it wasn't true....someone is lying.

Several people, even part of the organization, and even the TRACK MARSHAL said their was no black flag when I asked him on Sunday. Why James is so adamant that they were out for a full lap and ignored is beyond me. Seems to me he should've asked his staff - specifically, the track marshal - before he said that. Honestly, who else besides the track marshal would you ask to find out?

Seems like more than just a coincidence.
-Cody
As I said, your perception. "TWS (Texas World Speedway) management" could be more than one person. We just aren't going to agree (yet). More events supporting the lying accusation in other instances, and I'll certainly add it in to my calculations as to how I judge their honesty. There are more sides to every story.

I'm just not there yet. Before I call someone a liar, I need to be certain as it is about the worse thing you can say about someone.

Can you answer my question about notifying riders how to properly enter and exit the track at Ride Smart events?

I mean really, if it is all about safety, this is a free thing that would take less than one minute. Can you get that done at Ride Smart?
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:07 AM   #199
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Completely understandable.

and...oops...meant to address that. Yes, I will certainly bring it up.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:09 AM   #200
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Completely understandable.

and...oops...meant to address that. Yes, I will certainly bring it up.
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