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Old 03-19-2007, 12:15 AM   #1
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Exclamation CAN I HAVE GUN UNDER PASSENGER SEAT?

I was just wondering if i do not have a CHL can i carry a gun in the compartment under the passenger seat? I know it is legal (or used to be) to carry a gun in a trunk thats locked of a car so i was wondering if i could carry it in my bike trunk? I talked to people that said as long as it is not in reach of your normal riding position which it will not be. Any ideas?
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:22 AM   #2
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In short, most interpretations would state no, it is a concealed carry. Just suck it up pay your 300 and 8 hours and go get a license.

Also, if you know it should be in the trunk, why not put it in the trunk? If you don't intend to carry it why put it under the seat and not in the trunk?
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:08 AM   #3
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cant be loaded. as long as you are "trasnporting" the gun. Dont listen to the as$hats that will tell you different, trust me on this, or ask a cop.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:19 AM   #4
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Don't try to use the travelling defense if you aren't actually travelling. Just get your CHL and do things the right way. This is old hat to district attys and they are not lenient when it comes to cases like this. Luckily in Texas we have provisions for citizens to arm themselves, unlike NY or CA.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:59 AM   #5
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since you have been charged with a class b misd. i would be very careful in using that travelling statement.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh302
cant be loaded. as long as you are "trasnporting" the gun. Dont listen to the as$hats that will tell you different, trust me on this, or ask a cop.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:03 AM   #7
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Unless you can prove you were travelling, i.e. going to or from the range, I'd be real careful on trying to use that defense.
Especially if you're planning on carrying at night.
Regardless, the weapon must be unloaded.

Now if you're in Texas, you can have a loaded rifle in the window of your pick up, even an AR15, no problem.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:14 AM   #8
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Technically NO you can not, however if you are. The weapon needs to be unloaded, ammo in a seperate place than the weapon. And make a bag with some clothes in it as your "overnight bag" since you have to be "traveling to carry the weapon". This will help your case. But like mentioned above just suck it up and get a CHL.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh302
cant be loaded. as long as you are "trasnporting" the gun. Dont listen to the as$hats that will tell you different, trust me on this, or ask a cop.
Go ahead and ask a cop josh.

Go read the statutes-there are provisions for traveling. Also the burden of proof (but its not necessarily beyond reasonable doubt) has been shifted to the state to show you were not traveling to the range, as to before where you must proof you were. But if its 11:00 at night, you don't have printed directions to a range and you are on your way home from say a texans game you're gonna be in trouble. Besides, if you are transporting-it can be in the trunk.

And if you have one on you and are breaking the law-I suggest you let the officer know you are carrying (us concealed guys have to show ID, and I always state whether or not I am currently carring)-because I don't know a single officer who likes finding a surprise gun.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzr600racer
I was just wondering if i do not have a CHL can i carry a gun in the compartment under the passenger seat? I know it is legal (or used to be) to carry a gun in a trunk thats locked of a car so i was wondering if i could carry it in my bike trunk? I talked to people that said as long as it is not in reach of your normal riding position which it will not be. Any ideas?
actually you can the term travaling before 2005 was actually never defined . in sept of 2005 gov. perry defined travel as any time you are in your vehicle .it is legal i've heard issues with harris county still arresting people for this edit -- acyuallly it wasn't defined but the law but the burdem of proof mon the leos mean they have to proof you weren't traveling. . just get a chl and don't worry about it.

Last edited by ikp460.; 03-19-2007 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:10 AM   #11
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o yea its house bill 823 for those who want to argue....
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikp460.
actually you can the term travaling before 2005 was actually never defined . in sept of 2005 gov. perry defined travel as any time you are in your vehicle .it is legal i've heard issues with harris county still arresting people for this . just get a chl and don't worry about it.
i've heard this too. good luck
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha429
i've heard this too. good luck
majority of it is that the leo and even most people are not aware of the laws or thier right it been legal for over 2 years now and still people don't know.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:38 AM   #14
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in the 4 instances that harris county has tried to prosicute someone for a concealed hangun it was thrown out by the grand jury . all 4 of these were in 05 and not one other case has been submitted since 12/05 for it. so i think they have given up and decided to go by the law.
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:57 PM   #15
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"Traveling" defined at last, almost, after more than 125 years
HB 823 -- Amends Penal Code 2.05, 46.15

Analysts at the NRA, along with the Texas State Rifle Association’s Legislative Committee describe these two new amendments this way:

“Texas H.B. 823 prevents the police from routinely arresting a law-abiding person who is transporting a concealed pistol in his motor vehicle. This is accomplished by clothing a law-abiding person with the presumption of being a traveler. The traveler presumption may be rebutted by the state by presenting proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In plain terms, a law-abiding person should have no problem transporting his pistol in a motor vehicle provided the pistol is concealed.”

Texas Attorney Sean Healy has an eight-page paper
attempting to describe the new situation, read it here.

NRA short version (6/05):
“Legalizes the carrying of concealed handguns in private vehicles without a CHL.”

-----

Background: Since 1871, carrying a handgun in Texas, despite the Hollywood version of history, has been nearly totally banned for the public (long guns are unaffected by all this). A person who is “traveling” with a handgun is one of the very limited exemptions under the law. However, under this arrangement, mere possession of a handgun was presumed to be guilt of illegal carry, and it was up to you to prove your innocence after arrest, by proving you were traveling.

“Traveling” was not defined. Scores of county and state court cases generated numerous definitions of what constitutes “traveling,” many not even similar, many conflicting with each other. See 60 of them summarized in The Texas Gun Owner's Guide. Gun owners had no way of knowing if they were legal or not, abuse was rampant, it was a mess.

A primary function of written law is to give fair warning of what behavior is subject to punishment. The law therefore must give people a clear, understandable, unambiguous description of what the law is. When it fails to do so, it is invalid in court. That’s the principle at least. It has not been sufficient to save Texans from over a century of guessing whether they were truly traveling when they did so armed, and being arrested and convicted for simple possession of their private property.

Some Texans regained the ability to bear arms in 1995, when the CHL law was passed and signed by Governor (now President) Bush. It provided much needed relief from the long denial of rights. About 1% of all Texans have obtained a government license and can carry as they travel around the state. The other 99% are still under the ban that began in 1871.

-----

What the law does is create a definition of "traveling" at last, for carrying a firearm in a private motor vehicle only. It is actually a definition of a presumption of traveling, which the state would have to disprove in order to go after you for possession of a handgun. HB 823 is a somewhat roundabout way of decriminalizing a law-abiding person’s carry of a concealed handgun in a vehicle without a permit. Technically, it leaves the offense intact, and makes it hard for the state to come after you.

It seems to get the job done. But until the courts get a hold of a few people trying to bear arms in their vehicles under this law, the true effect is unknown, and who wants to be in the first few test cases, right?

The switch to a real definition is a step in the right direction, even if it only applies in vehicles. (No one is talking about how you legally get to and from your wheels. There are already some narrow exemptions for things like going hunting, to the range, to a gun store, etc.).

Next however, if we're lucky, the whole concept of criminalizing you and your personal property (firearms) for mere possession, when no criminal act is attached, will be abandoned altogether and our rights will take a giant leap forward.

-----

The definition of "traveling," for the exemption from a charge of illegal carry under 46.15(b)(3), is this:

A person is presumed to be traveling if the person is:
(1) in a private motor vehicle;
(2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
(4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01; and
(5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.

-----

Further confusion comes from the law's complicated jury instructions, burdens of proof, and presumptions about whether the person charged was in fact traveling at the time. It does appear to now put the burden of proof on the state, where it belongs and which is proper, so you're innocent until proven guilty. This will need some shakeout in court, with someone's future on the line.

The old model was the opposite -- your were guilty unless you could prove your innocence as an indefinable traveler -- a horrendous, un-American festering wound on the justice system. That euphemistically named "affirmative defense" procedure is so contrary to everything America stands for it should be abolished, its perpetrators run out of town, and I'm being nice about it.

The long line of logic attached to the traveler definition is (sit down):

If charged with illegal carry, and there's a presumption you're a traveler, the jury must be told of the traveler exemption, unless the judge decides the evidence can't reasonably support it; if the jury gets the traveler evidence it's presumed good unless the state can disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt; if the state fails to disprove it the jury gets it as a fact; if the jury decides it is not fact the state still must prove each other element of the complaint. Approximately -- if anyone out there disagrees or cares to discuss it, reach me at gunlaws.com, and I'll see about posting anything with merit. I decide merit. Read Healy’s paper, it helps.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikp460.
in the 4 instances that harris county has tried to prosicute someone for a concealed hangun it was thrown out by the grand jury . all 4 of these were in 05 and not one other case has been submitted since 12/05 for it. so i think they have given up and decided to go by the law.
if you can't get the CHL license, just don't carry it, unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary......

or you can add to the 4 instances above and be the 5th.....getting the case thrown out or not.....still costs a grip of money for a lawyer. just my .02
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLD
Go ahead and ask a cop josh.

Go read the statutes-there are provisions for traveling. Also the burden of proof (but its not necessarily beyond reasonable doubt) has been shifted to the state to show you were not traveling to the range, as to before where you must proof you were. But if its 11:00 at night, you don't have printed directions to a range and you are on your way home from say a texans game you're gonna be in trouble. Besides, if you are transporting-it can be in the trunk.

And if you have one on you and are breaking the law-I suggest you let the officer know you are carrying (us concealed guys have to show ID, and I always state whether or not I am currently carring)-because I don't know a single officer who likes finding a surprise gun.
I said nothing about traveling, I said TRANSPORTING, and UNLOADED, key words, leos are big on these. Leos are nothing more than secretarys of justice, they report what they hear and see to the people that actually do somthing. Kind of like when you were a kid and the hall monitor would write you up and you had to go see the priciple, same thing. So dont say anything to the oficer you dont want reported to the principle.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofpain
if you can't get the CHL license, just don't carry it, unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary......

or you can add to the 4 instances above and be the 5th.....getting the case thrown out or not.....still costs a grip of money for a lawyer. just my .02
How do you know when it is absolutely nescessary?

In my opinion I would rather be falsely arrested and defend myself in court where there is already precedent. Rather then be without a weapon in a situation where I needed to defend myself.

One of the situations above allows you to defend yourself another day. The other one comes with no guarantees.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh302
I said nothing about traveling, I said TRANSPORTING, and UNLOADED, key words, leos are big on these. Leos are nothing more than secretarys of justice, they report what they hear and see to the people that actually do somthing. Kind of like when you were a kid and the hall monitor would write you up and you had to go see the priciple, same thing. So dont say anything to the oficer you dont want reported to the principle.
Traveling has been defined as anytime you are in your personal vehicle. I think you two are argueing a case on old law. Times have changed my friends.
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Old 03-19-2007, 02:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh302
I said nothing about traveling, I said TRANSPORTING, and UNLOADED, key words, leos are big on these. Leos are nothing more than secretarys of justice, they report what they hear and see to the people that actually do somthing. Kind of like when you were a kid and the hall monitor would write you up and you had to go see the priciple, same thing. So dont say anything to the oficer you dont want reported to the principle.
Don't know regarding unloaded-I think where the ammo is also counts. But the point is moot, as I believe the original question pertained to an individual looking to carry for self-defense (I assume there were no illegal uses of the weapon planned) and as such should be loaded. Cause an unloaded gun used for self defense is worse than no gun.
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