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Old 05-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myla296 View Post
Really sorry to hear what you suffered. But, your story doesn't match the situation that is of the topic: a man backing away with his hands up. Shot dead anyway.

If you had a gun when you were 12 in that situation, it sounds like you would have been within your rights to shoot. And if you didn't, you would regret it because you would have to watch your back constantly.
I agree 1oo percent there. I was rebutting a post I was quoted in.

If you pull a piece and they back off, then yeah, it's murder plain and simple. , in war, the guys that just tried to kill you one minute, can surrender and you can't shoot them the next.

My argument is that just cause someone does not have a gun means squat if they are attacking you. People get killed every day from being beat to death, hence the term " beat to death"
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tejano? Rape me
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #42
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This is similar to the George Zimmerman/Trevon Martin case in Florida. After the cops, prosecutors and defense attorneys get finished interviewing everyone several times, there will be at least five different versions of the shooting and who did what and when. Remember, the victim can't tell his side.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SANCHO View Post
+1
I get exactly what you are saying. My wife freaks out that I want our kids(none yet) to be exposed to hunting and processing animals. When we are at my parents house processing our different game it grosses her out and thinks its cruel that my nieces and nephews have to help. Best way anyone can learn what carnage a firearm will cause.
++1


She needs to understand that knowing the entire process of life of our food gives you much more respect for the animals we eat. Meat is not grown one a styrofoam plastic covered package. Atleast not yet..

I try to follow the shamanic warriors way and thank every animal I eat. I don't always do it when busy or tired but I try to. Once while on tour with cirque a group of us had a "home cooked" dinner and the eldery born again christian couple led us in prayer thanking Jesus for the food. When I thanked the animals the look on their face was of complete shock. They had no concept of the life of a food stock animal or it's death and just how lucky we are in the western world to have the ability to eat meat every day, multiple times a day, without having to catch it, hunt it, kill it, clean it, cook it.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:28 PM   #44
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Nah man, I grew up in Juarez Mexico as a child in a very rough heiborhood. It was third world country rough. Trust me, I don't back down from , but I am older and not so fast to want to fight.

If someone comes at me wanting to throw down, I am sorry, keep insinuating I am a and we grew up different, I do t give a , I am putting a down.

Got beat the down real bad when I was 12 cause I wouldn't back down from some 17mor 18 year old cholo in el paso. I obliterated his nose but that's where it stopped going my way. I was beat bad. my teeth are still from that, I ended with my wrist impaled on a metal rod when I was thrown at the end of my beating. didn't feel the right side of my face til I was 35. Not fun when someone practices soccer free kicks with your face with steel toe shoes after you are out.

So I know first hand how things can go very life threatening bad from a "fight" but when a tough guy experienced filter, may it be street or trained, comes up wanting to fight, I have the right to defend my well being or my loved ones.

it's not always just a fat lip man, seeing someone dead from being beat is not pretty. Some people are not content at just stopping there.

it's one of those things where you think you are right but I know that you're wrong, sorry.
Maybe you should have backed down and you most likely wouldn't have gotten your beat so bad that you are to this day still suffering from it. It seems at 12 you weren't mature enough to properly evaluate the situation and to realize you were "out gunned".

It seems by your posts that you are still bitter about it. Obviously you didn't learn the lesson he was teaching you since aggression seems to be your default response.

You're mental definition of "being a man" seems flawed to me.

Some times you're the nail. Some times you're the hammer. Most of the time you're the thumb. That's life.
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:48 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eltejano View Post
Got beat the down real bad when I was 12 cause I wouldn't back down from some 17mor 18 year old cholo in el paso. I obliterated his nose but that's where it stopped going my way. I was beat bad. my teeth are still from that, I ended with my wrist impaled on a metal rod when I was thrown at the end of my beating. didn't feel the right side of my face til I was 35. Not fun when someone practices soccer free kicks with your face with steel toe shoes after you are out.

So I know first hand how things can go very life threatening bad from a "fight" but when a tough guy experienced filter, may it be street or trained, comes up wanting to fight, I have the right to defend my well being or my loved ones.

it's not always just a fat lip man, seeing someone dead from being beat is not pretty. Some people are not content at just stopping there.

it's one of those things where you think you are right but I know that you're wrong, sorry.
First off, it sounds like you chose not to back down from the confrontation. You set yourself up to be made an example of. Yes, I do agree that some fights may require and intervention, whether it be a weapon or an outside person stopping it, but most are over pretty quick.

As far as "knowing you're right", based on all the posts you make of all of your experiences with almost any subject under the sun, I suppose I probably should just capitulate, but I'll chalk this one up to just agree to disagree.

Just remember, if you choose to pull a gun, be sure to have the will to use it, as well as deal with the blowback afterwards.
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:00 PM   #46
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Quote:
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I agree 1oo percent there. I was rebutting a post I was quoted in.

If you pull a piece and they back off, then yeah, it's murder plain and simple. , in war, the guys that just tried to kill you one minute, can surrender and you can't shoot them the next.

My argument is that just cause someone does not have a gun means squat if they are attacking you. People get killed every day from being beat to death, hence the term " beat to death"
This...I work with a guy that just last year got knocked out by a single punch to the face and hit his head on the concrete. That one hit to the head almost killed him. He spent almost a month in the hospital and 2 months in rehab, all for getting in a guys face for running into him walking into a bar (even though it was intentional). The guy proceeded to leave him for dead on the sidewalk. The victim made a bad call being confrontational and it cost him his life. The shooter made a bad call pulling the trigger, but you better believe if someone comes at me or my family they are going to be looking at the end of a barrel if I have my gun on me. Call it what you want. I will call it self defense. They aren't going to get a chance to touch me or my family if I can help it.
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:28 PM   #47
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http://www.chron.com/news/article/Gu...p?cmpid=hpfsln
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:56 PM   #48
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This...I work with a guy that just last year got knocked out by a single punch to the face and hit his head on the concrete. That one hit to the head almost killed him. He spent almost a month in the hospital and 2 months in rehab, all for getting in a guys face for running into him walking into a bar (even though it was intentional). The guy proceeded to leave him for dead on the sidewalk. The victim made a bad call being confrontational and it cost him his life. The shooter made a bad call pulling the trigger, but you better believe if someone comes at me or my family they are going to be looking at the end of a barrel if I have my gun on me. Call it what you want. I will call it self defense. They aren't going to get a chance to touch me or my family if I can help it.
Sorry about your friend. He was probably randomly targeted by the guy to be taken out.
That said, please tell me how having a gun would have helped your friends situation?

If he pulled the gun on the guy for bumping him, whether intentional or not, he'd have gotten himself in a bind.
See, that's aggravated assault, a 3rd degree felony.
He obviously wasn't able to pull the gun after he got knocked out.

In all honesty his best course of action would have been to blow the guy off and walked away. There's lots of knock out artists floating around out there that get their rocks off taking out unsuspecting victims.

I knew a girl who would chat up a guy just to watch her bf knock him out.
In none of the above cases will having a gun help you.

Once again, people think having a gun is a cure all, using it as a crutch, when in fact it's no use at all in many situations. Don't get me wrong, I carry almost everywhere I go. But, I don't let the fact that I'm armed lull me into any false sense of security.
It's merely a tool, and one of last resort as far as I, and the law are concerned.
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:44 AM   #49
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First off, it sounds like you chose not to back down from the confrontation. You set yourself up to be made an example of. Yes, I do agree that some fights may require and intervention, whether it be a weapon or an outside person stopping it, but most are over pretty quick.

As far as "knowing you're right", based on all the posts you make of all of your experiences with almost any subject under the sun, I suppose I probably should just capitulate, but I'll chalk this one up to just agree to disagree.

Just remember, if you choose to pull a gun, be sure to have the will to use it, as well as deal with the blowback afterwards.
Ok, I was confronted by a bigger guy that wanted to beat up a friend, I stood up for him cause he was even smaller than me. We can agree to disagree, and you can keep making underhanded remarks.

I will say it again, people get killed by being beat. And if someone is dead set on hurting you, they will do it, but if I am dead set in defending myself, I will do so and believe its anyones right to do so. There are people that have never fought in their life, they Solent have to prove themselves and live up to your standards of what you think is right cause YOU prefer to fight like a man.

And thanks for reminding me about choosing to pull a gun and the will to use it.
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:58 AM   #50
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Maybe you should have backed down and you most likely wouldn't have gotten your beat so bad that you are to this day still suffering from it. It seems at 12 you weren't mature enough to properly evaluate the situation and to realize you were "out gunned".

It seems by your posts that you are still bitter about it. Obviously you didn't learn the lesson he was teaching you since aggression seems to be your default response.

You're mental definition of "being a man" seems flawed to me.

Some times you're the nail. Some times you're the hammer. Most of the time you're the thumb. That's life.
Actually, someone was gonna get beat that day, dumb me for trying to get some upper hand.

And ,duh, you think I was not mature your too evaluate the situation, gee great observation. I am not bitter about it, I learned a good lesson that day and never allowed that situation to get that bad again. I saw the dude like 15 years later and his nose was still so and it actually made me smile I was not the only one that looked in the mirror and was reminded every day.

You know, I had no clue teaching me a lesson was is intentions, , I would have stopped and taken notes. And what definition of being a man would that be?

Like I said before, from all the I went through and saw in my up childhood, I learned that now as an adult, I wish to not be in a situation that can turn badly on me. And when someone is bigger and badder than me, I will put myself in a situation where I have to really hurt the dude with something to "win" that fight. No good comes of it.

But, if I get jumped or some BS like that, why shouldn't I have the right to defend myself with deadly force? I wish I never have to but , this is a bad world some times and some real people in it and I was unfortunate to grow up around some of the most crime riddled neighborhoods you will ever see. So I have learned many life lessons like getting the out of there, I live in one of the safest cities in the country now so I DON'T have to be in that situation again.

But Forced into that situation I will defend myself, probably will never have to because I am rarely anywhere it would come to that but you never know.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:43 AM   #51
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Anyway, best thingis to avoid all this or stay away from people or places where this could happen if all possible.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:19 AM   #52
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Patrick, I agree with you in my friends situation, a gun would not have helped. He should have kept on walking. It could have been avoided entirely, just like the situation with the biker could have. My point was, I am not about to take a beating if I can help it. You never know when it could be your last. If I am not able to talk myself out of the situation and guy is dead set on fighting, then I'm going to pull a gun and give him one last chance to back down. Besides if you get into a fight with someone how do you know they dont have a gun or even a knife? People are crazy.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:06 PM   #53
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i consider a confrontation avoided , a win. I am not looking to prove anything to anyone, and if they need me to prove something to them they are not the kind of people i need to be around. i always carry but preperation is more than having your pistol loaded.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:48 PM   #54
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My dad would be looking for a good lawyer for his son too...
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:57 PM   #55
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No codification of law, merely common sense.
Note that I did put the qualifying statement in my previous post: IF the assailant is much weaker/unable to defend themselves than a gun may be used as a deterrent.
So in your case of the frail diabetic vs the 300 lb. Bandido than deadly force would be reasonable.
At the end of the day that's the key isn't it; reasonable.
A reasonable man does not pull a gun on an unarmed man unless there is a threat of loss of life. A reasonable man does not shoot an unarmed man if that man is no longer a threat; i.e. discontinues the assault, let alone backs away with hands raised.
There was a significant absence of reason in this case
If more were like you Im sure there wouldn't be near as many anti gun people as there are now. Cats in this thread come across as trigger happy people that are itching to blow someone ones melon offso much so that they have that ''wish a would attitude"
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:02 PM   #56
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:28 PM   #57
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Ok, I was confronted by a bigger guy that wanted to beat up a friend, I stood up for him cause he was even smaller than me. We can agree to disagree, and you can keep making underhanded remarks.

I will say it again, people get killed by being beat. And if someone is dead set on hurting you, they will do it, but if I am dead set in defending myself, I will do so and believe its anyones right to do so. There are people that have never fought in their life, they Solent have to prove themselves and live up to your standards of what you think is right cause YOU prefer to fight like a man.

And thanks for reminding me about choosing to pull a gun and the will to use it.
Almost made you want to punch me in the mouth, right?
Now, in that case should I shoot you? I think not.



Quote:
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Anyway, best thingis to avoid all this or stay away from people or places where this could happen if all possible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DT675 View Post
Patrick, I agree with you in my friends situation, a gun would not have helped. He should have kept on walking. It could have been avoided entirely, just like the situation with the biker could have. My point was, I am not about to take a beating if I can help it. You never know when it could be your last. If I am not able to talk myself out of the situation and guy is dead set on fighting, then I'm going to pull a gun and give him one last chance to back down. Besides if you get into a fight with someone how do you know they dont have a gun or even a knife? People are crazy.
Now, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying one should not use a gun to defend themselves from a legitimate threat.
I'm simply stating that some people think they can pull a gun at the slightest provocation, and that's neither smart or reasonable.

If you read through the thread there's lots of guys that think they can produce a gun at the slightest sign of conflict as a deterrent.
That's not only foolish as it may cause the conflict to escalate, esp. if the op is armed, but it's also illegal and can land them in hot water.

I understand Castle Doctrine laws very well, but that doesn't apply here.
Apparently they're neighbors but the shooting occured on the bikers property.
Which probably means the father, who the shooter was allegedly defending, was probably the aggressor.
The son went to his residence, got a gun and then went to his neighbors house/property and then shot him. Add to that fact witness statements that the biker raised his hands and backed away and you have premeditated murder. I don't care how good a lawyer the father hires, he's going to serve some pretty serious time.

While I am a big supporter of the 2A, I'm also not naive enough to believe that everyone that owns a gun uses it judiciously.
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:35 PM   #58
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Quote:
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Almost made you want to punch me in the mouth, right?
Now, in that case should I shoot you? I think not.


.
Dude, that's not even anywhe near the point I have been making here. again for the last time, if someone tries to fight me and I have o other recourse and I think I might be badly injured, I believe in deadly force.

Another example, a customer that works at urban outfitters was out with somme friends, some happened and he got punched and he was walking backwards trying to tell the guy he didn't want to fight, he got punched and was Ina coma for a few months and almost died.

But I guess he did the right thing by getting hit and almost ending up dead.

I guess you are dead set on your way of thinking and I on mine.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:33 PM   #59
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For everyone saying, due to the guy raising his hands and backing up, should of ended it, well I don't know if you should be so quick.

Does it end there? Has the biker done in the past to provoke the neighbor, has he threatened him? He's the guys neighbor, and he could very well of been acting on a threat, the guy easily could of waited a day, or a week even, and methodically beat the living out of him as he was watering his lawn or something. The biker could of broke into the other guys house and sliced his throat while he was sleeping. Sure he was backing up with his hands, but what life threatening words were coming out of his mouth. What revenge was he planning in his head as he backed up? I don't think anyone thought of these types of details. And if he was a cruiser, leather-ed, rough and tough looking type of biker, I sure as would of done the same thing, no way do I want to die in my sleep or have my family stalked, raped, murdered or whatnot.
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:09 PM   #60
darranwil
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I use to have a video I bought off of a tv infomercial. Only thing ever. Little asian guy who came to america right after veitnam. Everywhere he went some tried to kick his cause they couldn't tell the difference between korean/chinese/veitnamese/japanese/siamese.

To quote "I know kung fu, but me no buce lee!". Dis guy twee times my size! But his eyewall, and my eyewall, same size. His knee and my knee, same size! Hes , my , same size! He got gun! Pokem in de eye, kick em in the knee, Wun away!" Now he see half as gooood as me, with won knee, he now half my height! Kick in ! Wun away in diagonal line! He onwe 15% of hitting me with bullet an he no chase me!"

To this day I live by that. Pokem in the eye, kickem in the , break the knee, run away. Hasnt failed me yet.
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