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Old 05-11-2013, 11:42 AM   #21
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Motogp NOT prototype class you think it is. The rules are more restrictive than WSBK and discorage development. Grinchy and Chuckstr said it best, WSBK is better for that. If you want can read the rule books on fim-live.com and see. The perilla and BMW examples. But this won't last as that series destine to become super stock format, still not bad and pangalies run up front there too.

Suzuki not going to run a team, can't doran capped the grid. They would provide bikes to an an existing team if one interested. Testing rumered to happen with top CRT group. I saw where they may be abandoning their v4 and going inline, not sure i agree best route to take, but mabye linked to marketing and connected to what they sell which is cheaper to make.

And CRT can run within 107% and quality for the grid so they belong. More riders got lapped in the good ole days than they do now. Plus how cool is it that US wild cards can show up qualify for race and load the bike in the back of a pick up truck to go home.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #22
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to me, its not a "world championship" if only a few manfac's show up.

Kinda like being at a carnival. Play that water shooting game to blow up balloons, first one to pop...wins? They have like 10 spots and you can win if you're the only person playing......its gay.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:43 PM   #23
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Like the analogy, I never wanna spend the money to do those cause I don t think the prize is really worth the expense.

But speaking of manufactures look at this , you may find it interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tors_champions

I happened to be looking at it yesturday to remind myself that Lorenzo won the riders championship last year on a bike that didn't win the constructors championship. If he can pull it off, theres a chance he could do the same again this year.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Motogp NOT prototype class you think it is. The rules are more restrictive than WSBK and discorage development. Grinchy and Chuckstr said it best, WSBK is better for that. If you want can read the rule books on fim-live.com and see. The perilla and BMW examples. But this won't last as that series destine to become super stock format, still not bad and pangalies run up front there too.

Suzuki not going to run a team, can't doran capped the grid. They would provide bikes to an an existing team if one interested. Testing rumered to happen with top CRT group. I saw where they may be abandoning their v4 and going inline, not sure i agree best route to take, but mabye linked to marketing and connected to what they sell which is cheaper to make.

And CRT can run within 107% and quality for the grid so they belong. More riders got lapped in the good ole days than they do now. Plus how cool is it that US wild cards can show up qualify for race and load the bike in the back of a pick up truck to go home.



MotoGP is still a prototype concept if you think about it. Titanium engine for the Honda for starters. I read an article on Brembo about how some riders have calipers and other brake components designed specifically for them for certain tracks. Trickle down technology, not so much. Sure, we got the R1 crossplane engine. Monster when in the M1, makes a pretty sound in the barge of an R1. The Panigale uses tech from Ducati MotoGP, makes for rapid disassembly upon wrecks. People give me a hard time when I say MotoGP would be more interesting if it went to a control 1k engine format like the other classes. It would level the playing field in terms of bank accounts.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:36 PM   #25
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MotoGP is the new F1,
WSBK gained credibility when it stopped being a Ducati Cup festival imo.
Such a shame Honda and Yamaha dont have factory teams.

I think Yamaha bowed out because they knew their chunky R1 wasn't going to stand a chance with BMW and the RSV4 entering the fight. Ten Kate is doing a pretty good job with an outdated bike IMO. The CBR and Gixxer have met a development standstill in their current designs. Neither are bad bikes by any stretch but, BMW, Aprilia and now Kawasaki have just made better bikes. The Panigale is still in its early stages and I expect to see them move up as the year progresses. I don't personally think Checa is the man to develop the bike around as he's probably going to retire soon. Not that he's not good, I just don't think he's up to the task.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #26
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Suzuki is already set to have a bike in Moto GP for the 2014 season, they've been testing all this year.

Rumors are a new prototype i4 crossplane, similar to the R1, or a new v4 prototype.

I'm leaning towards the i4 crossplane, because the new gsxr 1000 is set to be introduced for 2015, which would make sense for them to make entries back into the race world before pushing out a new concept of design.

This article has a lot of info about the new motoGP bike:

2014 Suzuki MotoGP rumored bike specs

And even Harley-Davidson announced a decline in sales through Q1 of 2013 of 16% compared to 2012--motorcycle sales are down across the board--

And if you look at it from a global advertising perspective, it really is a genius move--Suzuki has no representation in the biggest international racing circuit, and with the economic upswing that central Asia has taken over the last 25 years, the market for motorcycles globally is expanding, regardless of what is happening here in the states.

I don't think the question is can Suzuki afford to race, but can they afford not to.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:49 PM   #27
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i like moto gp but i prefer to watch wsbk...just seems more entertaining, plus the kawis are strong.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:21 PM   #28
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i like moto gp but i prefer to watch wsbk...just seems more entertaining, plus the kawis are strong.

I think people like us can relate (so to speak) to WSBK. They pretty much start their life like our personal bikes (after a sense)
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Motogp NOT prototype class you think it is. The rules are more restrictive than WSBK and discorage development. Grinchy and Chuckstr said it best, WSBK is better for that. If you want can read the rule books on fim-live.com and see. The perilla and BMW examples. But this won't last as that series destine to become super stock format, still not bad and pangalies run up front there too.

Suzuki not going to run a team, can't doran capped the grid. They would provide bikes to an an existing team if one interested. Testing rumered to happen with top CRT group. I saw where they may be abandoning their v4 and going inline, not sure i agree best route to take, but mabye linked to marketing and connected to what they sell which is cheaper to make.

And CRT can run within 107% and quality for the grid so they belong. More riders got lapped in the good ole days than they do now. Plus how cool is it that US wild cards can show up qualify for race and load the bike in the back of a pick up truck to go home.
hasn't done yamaha much harm


Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Like the analogy, I never wanna spend the money to do those cause I don t think the prize is really worth the expense.

But speaking of manufactures look at this , you may find it interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tors_champions

I happened to be looking at it yesturday to remind myself that Lorenzo won the riders championship last year on a bike that didn't win the constructors championship. If he can pull it off, theres a chance he could do the same again this year.
again emphasizing just how good he is, how quick we forget with all this talk of super rookie MM that Jlo still holds several lap records from 2008 which given the move to 1000's and the huge pace of development is pretty darn impressive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
MotoGP is still a prototype concept if you think about it. Titanium engine for the Honda for starters. I read an article on Brembo about how some riders have calipers and other brake components designed specifically for them for certain tracks. Trickle down technology, not so much. Sure, we got the R1 crossplane engine. Monster when in the M1, makes a pretty sound in the barge of an R1. The Panigale uses tech from Ducati MotoGP, makes for rapid disassembly upon wrecks. People give me a hard time when I say MotoGP would be more interesting if it went to a control 1k engine format like the other classes. It would level the playing field in terms of bank accounts.
Barge of an R1???, here, enjoy some of that barge kicking



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
I think Yamaha bowed out because they knew their chunky R1 wasn't going to stand a chance with BMW and the RSV4 entering the fight. Ten Kate is doing a pretty good job with an outdated bike IMO. The CBR and Gixxer have met a development standstill in their current designs. Neither are bad bikes by any stretch but, BMW, Aprilia and now Kawasaki have just made better bikes. The Panigale is still in its early stages and I expect to see them move up as the year progresses. I don't personally think Checa is the man to develop the bike around as he's probably going to retire soon. Not that he's not good, I just don't think he's up to the task.
really???

and Honda should be dragged over the coals for not putting a decent bike under Rea, that TK POS is an embarrassment to the big H



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
I think people like us can relate (so to speak) to WSBK. They pretty much start their life like our personal bikes (after a sense)
well the silhouette is the same
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Motogp NOT prototype class you think it is. The rules are more restrictive than WSBK and discorage development.
Oh sure. Except for the prototype motors, the prototype chassis, the per-turn electronics, and the live data acquisition...
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:01 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
hasn't done yamaha much harm




again emphasizing just how good he is, how quick we forget with all this talk of super rookie MM that Jlo still holds several lap records from 2008 which given the move to 1000's and the huge pace of development is pretty darn impressive



Barge of an R1???, here, enjoy some of that barge kicking





really???

and Honda should be dragged over the coals for not putting a decent bike under Rea, that TK POS is an embarrassment to the big H





well the silhouette is the same


If Yamaha was still racing 2009 bikes they would be fine. As soon as Spies left, the Yamaha was a mid pack bike. 2009 was really the first year for the RSV4 and BMW hadn't produced the S1000rr yet, at least not for racing.

Since Ten Kate has no factory support, they aren't doing too bad. An embarrassment to Honda maybe but on tracks where handling overrides top speed, they can run in the top 5. I think a lot of that has to do with Rea though.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Oh sure. Except for the prototype motors, the prototype chassis, the per-turn electronics, and the live data acquisition...
Have you read the rules... Engine development frozen, half the field on production motors, chassis development curtatiled as motor mount locations fixed unless wanna incur using one of your 5 motor alotment and starting from back of grid. Gps data acquisition banned, and gps real time performace adjustment banned. Brake disks and calipers standardized, diameters size mass materials. Fuel injection pressures capped through standard regulators flow rates and pressure, On and on.

The bike that comes out of this rule book is very predictable.
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al...013_season.pdf


Couldn't quote all the others, but doubt using titanium motor now. The weight gone up every year since the 800s, and last couple seasons was done late and Honda had to bolt bars onto bike, which caused chatter issues since already had weight distribution designed. This year went up again, but in advance and could be centralized better hence not chatter.

Testing rules that were relaxed to help Marquez make a stellar debut have now been closed again.

And yes I do think the inline layout huts yahmaha, they are down on power, but do have best handling and most adjustable adaptable chassis. Yahmaha is not the tuning fork company for nothing, and likewise its not coincidence that its the Honda Motor Company either. Both sticking with tradition it seems nicely.

Love the spies video, that pass at assen burned into my memory. but remember Sykes was mid pack that yr on the same bike. However, to borrow part of the title from another riders autobio, I'm sure we don't know the half of it.

The yahmi also came 2nd the yr before they pulled out, and Sykes now a contender on a Kwai, so go figure.

Back on mpg, I've really warmed up to Lorenzo, last year was really impressive. I was hoping this yr that rossi would be higher up to give Marquez an kicking welcome to the big leagues but been disappointed... And the love fest that's brewing begining to make by stomach turn.. Hoping for a good hard fought and bitter rivalry develops somewhere.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:11 AM   #33
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Maybe I read it wrong but it looked like the only real thing they could adjust was the chassis as it has to be a prototype. The engines can only be opened to change gearing (under supervision of control panel). And Honda can't use that amazing tranny they had last year. Brakes could be ceramic but sizes are restricted.

I hate to say it but I think Honda and Yamaha would be better off funding a WSBK. It doesn't make sense to have a prototype (development) class that you can't develop throughout the year. I understand the regulations are designed to make the class more affordable and level (somewhat) the playing field. MotoGP sells clothes, production based race series sell bikes. More money in the clothing side though.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:48 AM   #34
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Why? Suzuki would just be in DEAD LAST like they ALWAYS HAVE AND ALWAYS WILL BE.


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Old 05-16-2013, 07:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Have you read the rules... Engine development frozen, half the field on production motors, chassis development curtatiled as motor mount locations fixed unless wanna incur using one of your 5 motor alotment and starting from back of grid. Gps data acquisition banned, and gps real time performace adjustment banned. Brake disks and calipers standardized, diameters size mass materials. Fuel injection pressures capped through standard regulators flow rates and pressure, On and on.

The bike that comes out of this rule book is very predictable.
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al...013_season.pdf


Couldn't quote all the others, but doubt using titanium motor now. The weight gone up every year since the 800s, and last couple seasons was done late and Honda had to bolt bars onto bike, which caused chatter issues since already had weight distribution designed. This year went up again, but in advance and could be centralized better hence not chatter.

Testing rules that were relaxed to help Marquez make a stellar debut have now been closed again.

And yes I do think the inline layout huts yahmaha, they are down on power, but do have best handling and most adjustable adaptable chassis. Yahmaha is not the tuning fork company for nothing, and likewise its not coincidence that its the Honda Motor Company either. Both sticking with tradition it seems nicely.

Love the spies video, that pass at assen burned into my memory. but remember Sykes was mid pack that yr on the same bike. However, to borrow part of the title from another riders autobio, I'm sure we don't know the half of it.

The yahmi also came 2nd the yr before they pulled out, and Sykes now a contender on a Kwai, so go figure.

Back on mpg, I've really warmed up to Lorenzo, last year was really impressive. I was hoping this yr that rossi would be higher up to give Marquez an kicking welcome to the big leagues but been disappointed... And the love fest that's brewing begining to make by stomach turn.. Hoping for a good hard fought and bitter rivalry develops somewhere.
The engines are STILL prototype...they just can't use a fresh one very race weekend.

The chassis is STILL prototype they just can't change the mounting locations mid-season without consuming a motor

Yea, the rules make the bikes so predictable that we have v4s and I4s running up front

And even the production motors are in prototype chassis.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
The engines are STILL prototype...they just can't use a fresh one very race weekend.

The chassis is STILL prototype they just can't change the mounting locations mid-season without consuming a motor

Yea, the rules make the bikes so predictable that we have v4s and I4s running up front

And even the production motors are in prototype chassis.
I think you just described Moto3

Now that were more or less on the same page, read more into the sections that dont contain the the word prototype and yourll appritiate the contraints within which you bulid this prototype to. Defacto compresson limits baed on very specifc fuel chemistriy, RPM limits as a result of bore and stroke limits..etc. these just clever ways to hide the boundries.

What your left with is a design challange, and not an outright quest for perfomance.

It becomesto a boundry value optimization and not global one. Money will be spent exploiting gaps in rules, not what makes sense otherwise. Yourll se millions spent on widgets that make no sense just because thats all thats left to play with and honda not going to return the money they dont use back to repsol. To premet this priice caps will be proposed on brakes, bikes, engines, head count, you name it, to come.

That said, not that moto3 a bad thing, quite the contray, this is the plan fowrad for motogp, its what everyones been asking for, less bike more rider, more skill, exititment, etc. Throw in the spec ecu and the rest of changes for next year and your just about there, and alot closuer than just a few yrs ago wouldve been thought possible, and yahmahs inline acts like v4.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckster View Post
Maybe I read it wrong but it looked like the only real thing they could adjust was the chassis as it has to be a prototype. The engines can only be opened to change gearing (under supervision of control panel). And Honda can't use that amazing tranny they had last year. Brakes could be ceramic but sizes are restricted.

I hate to say it but I think Honda and Yamaha would be better off funding a WSBK. It doesn't make sense to have a prototype (development) class that you can't develop throughout the year. I understand the regulations are designed to make the class more affordable and level (somewhat) the playing field. MotoGP sells clothes, production based race series sell bikes. More money in the clothing side though.
agree completely, I think WSBK is structured better to develop and deliver product to market.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
hasn't done yamaha much harm




again emphasizing just how good he is, how quick we forget with all this talk of super rookie MM that Jlo still holds several lap records from 2008 which given the move to 1000's and the huge pace of development is pretty darn impressive



Barge of an R1???, here, enjoy some of that barge kicking





really???

and Honda should be dragged over the coals for not putting a decent bike under Rea, that TK POS is an embarrassment to the big H





well the silhouette is the same
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
agree completely, I think WSBK is structured better to develop and deliver product to market.



I think I read somewhere that most manufacturers only clear about 2%-6% off each bike they sell. Compare that to clothing at +50% profit and you can see where they make their money.
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