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Old 05-04-2013, 08:56 AM   #1
Rowdy76
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Cage vs Motorcycle - accident prevention

We kinda jacked Cupial's wreck thread so I am moving this discussion.

1) I came to this forum for information and to meet other riders.

2) I will not ignore the opinion or suggestions of an experienced rider because it could save me from getting busted up or dead.

However, and it may be something I will never get over because I am a realist. I believe in being black and white .. but you cant ignore there is sometimes a gray area. Experience is saying you can prevent an accident. I am not saying that is not true. I am just saying its bullshit you have to try to place blame on yourself when someone else does something stupid. I will never fully accept that but based on what people are saying I will have to live by it as long as I chose to ride on two wheels. I do not want you all to think I am trying to say I know better or anything like that.

Please do not misunderstand my ideology for stupidity. I have been told by experienced riders "It is not if you will go down, its when will you go down" cause most people do sometime in their riding lifetime. I took that at face value.

I am approaching riding like the game "Frogger" (to those who had an Atari). Only I am the cars and the cagers are the frog. You never know when the Frog may jump out in front of you. So while I hear what everyone is saying about learning to avoid accidents .. stay alert .. be ready to brake ... scan the road ... etc, I just will never take the blame for someone else who makes a mistake. Hopefully I live through their mistake and like I mentioned before in the other thread .. It is up to the individual to evaluate their actions and see if they could have done something better. Because I believe there are times in this world when you can be 100% on your game but you can not change the outcome when an unknown variable tries to occupy the same space as you.

Why do I feel so strongly toward this. I spent 3 years trying to figure out what I could have done different to avoid an accident that happened at work. Lawyers and Insurance companies telling me it was a "no fault accident" since we both worked for the same company. I was standing in my work area where no forklifts should have entered and a guy carrying a 5 gal water keg on the forks (mast obstructing his view) hit me in the back with a blade. I was wearing all my safety gear, I was not acting foolish but I could have done nothing different that day to change his actions. So I end up with 2 screws and bar holding my bone fusion together. A 50/50 chance of dieing or bleeding out surgery and this guy just cant drive a lift any more (we are union - so he cant be fired but I got over that). My life was changed forever. I live in pain everyday had to alter my life because of someone's stupidity/laziness.

So let me close this up. I am not saying I will not learn to ride defensive cause I should not have to, It is just my opinion that the attitude of you can always prevent something is not a fact. I am living proof of that.

Last edited by Rowdy76; 05-04-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:01 AM   #2
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:15 AM   #3
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well im no expert either. however I do work in manufacturing and do safety meetings every month. from what im understanding you were hit by a forklift operator. what bugs me is lawyers and insurance says its no fault. just a question or two. how is it no fault if the operator was in an area where he wasnt suppose to. did he alert anyone he was in the area. ( horn ) seems to me the company is trying to cover there .
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:19 AM   #4
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as far as riding, its like a game I try to determin what the drivers are going to do next. if I can figure that out then I can make corrective actions if needed. it helped me about 10 times. cause we are in a world where everything is a distraction.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:19 AM   #5
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I'll stick to my original opinion based on the video. Rider was not at fault. Car was. Rider could have potentially stopped/swerved had he been doing the speed limit and been properly scanning. I wasn't there, and I know the cager is fault, but I've been riding for about 15 years and have probably avoided 30 accidents just like this by paying attention and bein' conservative with my speed in a dense traffic area...but hey, what do I know? Like it says under my username, getting old I guess. The OP should be glad it wasn't worse and should reflect on what happened and what could have been done to avoid. Let me rephrase...what HE could have done to avoid the accident b/c we all know you can't control variables outside of the seat.

Last edited by dbuck; 05-04-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstermanus View Post
well im no expert either. however I do work in manufacturing and do safety meetings every month. from what im understanding you were hit by a forklift operator. what bugs me is lawyers and insurance says its no fault. just a question or two. how is it no fault if the operator was in an area where he wasnt suppose to. did he alert anyone he was in the area. ( horn ) seems to me the company is trying to cover there .
Yeah it was someone bullshit .. I ended up with a settlement and all my paid for. No horn and yeah covering their . I work at the port of Houston. On the City Dock Side North we are all Union. So we hire out to the companies for the job. You have the Stevedore (labor/equipment provider), The Owner of the vessel, and any other third parties on the dock like truck drivers other companies picking up cargo they need to deliver.

The played the "No fault" card because we work for same company. I can not sue because it falls under Work Comp. If had been a third party involved I can sue them. That is where that whole line of came from.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #7
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The biker may have a lack of skill...but its completwly the cagers fault
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy76 View Post
Yeah it was someone bullshit .. I ended up with a settlement and all my paid for. No horn and yeah covering their . I work at the port of Houston. On the City Dock Side North we are all Union. So we hire out to the companies for the job. You have the Stevedore (labor/equipment provider), The Owner of the vessel, and any other third parties on the dock like truck drivers other companies picking up cargo they need to deliver.

The played the "No fault" card because we work for same company. I can not sue because it falls under Work Comp. If had been a third party involved I can sue them. That is where that whole line of came from.
Same thing happened to me a while back. Owner of the company I worked for picked some pipe up with a bad strap and he asked me to help guide it. Strap broke fell on my foot and broke it in several spots. I could have sued but it would have out the other guys i worked with out of a job and I couldnt do it. It was a smallish shop and he paid for my medical and all missed hours. I still dont have feeling in my foot but it is what it is. Aftet my accident on my bike (broken wrist, concussion, stitches in my nads...ouch) I have a strobg believing that 90% of the accidents ive seen are easily avoidable with diligence. In this matter a little less speed might have helped on the bikes part but it could have been avoided if the cager would have followed proper road procedures...
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:05 PM   #9
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Even when it is not our fault it is ALWAYS our responsibility to deal with everything out there. With an attitude of anything less than that then find another hobby like kite flying. The hostile riding environment existed long before anyone of us. We made the choice to ride in among it and making that choice means we must deal with what we are given.

If you accept that then the question is...what are you going to do about it?

Cower? Ride like an til you get hurt or killed? Become a so-so rider who eeks by? Suck up you f ing pride and go get some training and become more than you are? Your call.

I chose to get training from better and smarter riders year after year and have an everlasting urge to learn everything and ride every day to improve.

With 36 years of active street riding and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on about every type of bike I have never crashed and probably wont ever because I have been taught habits that prevail.

Are any of you willing to do what it takes to do the same?
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:18 PM   #10
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As the magician I use to work with would say: "Always leave yourself an out".

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid Killer View Post
Even when it is not our fault it is ALWAYS our responsibility to deal with everything out there. With an attitude of anything less than that then find another hobby like kite flying. The hostile riding environment existed long before anyone of us. We made the choice to ride in among it and making that choice means we must deal with what we are given.

If you accept that then the question is...what are you going to do about it?

Cower? Ride like an til you get hurt or killed? Become a so-so rider who eeks by? Suck up you f ing pride and go get some training and become more than you are? Your call.


I chose to get training from better and smarter riders year after year and have an everlasting urge to learn everything and ride every day to improve.

With 36 years of active street riding and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on about every type of bike I have never crashed and probably wont ever because I have been taught habits that prevail.

Are any of you willing to do what it takes to do the same?


You are a riding instructor? Not really what I would expect to hear but Ok. Your assumption I am against safety is way off course. I have taken the MSF Beginner course to get my license. I plan to go back and take the Exp Rider Course. Not sure I will ever take it to the track because I am not looking to ride Out. If the track offers something other than that maybe I will try it. I will for sure check it out if someone can tell me it will. I have no desire to race the track. If I can learn something that can be applied to street riding .. I am all for it.

Why get a motorcycle rather than fly a kite? I wanted one. Should I have to have a reason other than that. Do I want to be as safe as possible .. sure I do. Am willing to change my beliefs because every one thinks a certain way ... No. Not a sheep here. I am a 36yr old man not some kid with a new toy.

And if you dont mind saying .. where are you an instructor? Just curious.

Last edited by Rowdy76; 05-04-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy76 View Post
[/B]

You are a riding instructor? Not really what I would expect to hear but Ok. Your assumption I am against safety is way off course. I have taken the MSF Beginner course to get my license. I plan to go back and take the Exp Rider Course. Not sure I will ever take it to the track because I am not looking to ride Out. If the track offers something other than that maybe I will try it. I will for sure check it out if someone can tell me it will. I have no desire to race the track. If I can learn something that can be applied to street riding .. I am all for it.

Why get a motorcycle rather than fly a kite? I wanted one. Should I have to have a reason other than that. Do I want to be as safe as possible .. sure I do. Am willing to change my beliefs because every one thinks a certain way ... No. Not a sheep here. I am a 36yr old man not some kid with a new toy.

And if you dont mind saying .. where are you an instructor? Just curious.
Learning to overcome your bodys natural Survival Responses which are 180 to what you need to do in an emergency and to know the true limits of the bike/rider in a safe and sane location. I don't mean out, just being able to know what your bike/you are truely capable of can save your life/bike. That's why track days are important.

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:59 PM   #13
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I thought I was a good street rider until I went to the track. I probably came out of that first TD with a 40% improvement of my riding skills.

Its not about going out. Its about seeing the same series of turns over & over that you take at 30 then 40 then 50 etc to gradually raise the bar of what it takes you to panic in a controlled environment. You gain confidence in handling & brakes that you simply can't get on the street.

I've seen a woman on a bagged harley riding at a track day.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
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[/B]

Your assumption I am against safety is way off course.
Your assumption that I was talking about you is also way off course.

I was offering a view that I was taught by better riders and has worked perfect for decades. Basically, to ride offensive more and defensive less. To take control of the situation more which reduces the need to react to things.

Your desire to think back on what could have been done different or better is a great tool to become a superior rider. The riders who don't do that usually quit riding after a few years. The desire to question everything is also a great tool to use. That's how we weed through all the BS information people spew about how to ride.

I'm trying to agree with most of what you are saying but it seems you took it in a negative way.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:40 PM   #15
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And since you asked.... I have taught at over 20 locations throughout Texas for over 17 years. I teach the basic class, experienced class, a very advanced class (Total Control), track school, basic and advanced off road riding and do 6 to 8 classes per month. I rider over 20,000 miles per year in heavy traffic on my 8 motorcycles and in all weather. Also earned my racing license over 20 years ago with CMRA. I also travel on motorcycles and have been on the road for over a year at a time just living off the bike. Zero accidents, ever.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid Killer View Post
Your assumption that I was talking about you is also way off course.

I was offering a view that I was taught by better riders and has worked perfect for decades. Basically, to ride offensive more and defensive less. To take control of the situation more which reduces the need to react to things.

Your desire to think back on what could have been done different or better is a great tool to become a superior rider. The riders who don't do that usually quit riding after a few years. The desire to question everything is also a great tool to use. That's how we weed through all the BS information people spew about how to ride.

I'm trying to agree with most of what you are saying but it seems you took it in a negative way.
Sorry that I took it the wrong way. Since I am the one going against the grain assumed it was for me.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:59 PM   #17
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1. you can't have a serious discussion on motohouston lol
2. Even if your wheels fall off someone is going to say that youre at fault.., and to some degree wont be wrong.

Whether you wanna accept to what degree or take an absolute view depends on you're definition of the word accident.

Basically some things are more unforeseeable to some than others, so what is an accident to one is just failure to act or be able to act to another.

If you wanna see things as black and white then you need to take the view you are in control. be it your actions, ability to react to others actions, or just maintaining your bike.

When you assign portions of blame you shift responsibility from yourself to another, and the result is that you put that other entity in control.

You're wise to learn from other incidents as it increases your ability to foresee things in future, first step to avoiding unforeseen events.

i also tend to profile cars. If its a junk car it's prob also a junk driver. Or if your in china town and see a women driver stay away. If in the ghetto be extra cautious. generaly people dont start making better desissions all of a sundden when they get in a car than otherwise. Typically they get worse. Also check your 6 and be aware when come up to or sitting at a light, you're no safer than a pedestrian standing in the road if you dont keep it in gear and able to get away if necessary, and people in cars look past you to the next car in front.

Deffenetly do the track day. Your confidence with breaking will increase dramatically. No more worries about when will the light turn yellow. Almost want it to so you can practice your breaking some more. Also ability to control bike and munevability is a huge plus, you're exits routes only count if you have the confidence to use them.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:44 AM   #18
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If you want to survive the streets of Houston you have to learn to anticipate what other drivers might do, even when you are driving a car.

Riding/Driving defensively might not keep all accidents from happening, but it will definitely reduce the chances of one happening. Quite possibly save yourself from serious injury or death.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:02 AM   #19
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You're right, you can't prevent everything. You can be doing everything right and them some. Yet, you still die because an airplane engine fell from the sky and landed on your head. Life happens. So enjoy it and play the game as best you can.

(For real, a guy at a car dealership in California was at killed at his office desk when two small airplanes had a mid-air collision and one of the engines separated, fell through the buildings ceiling and took the guy out at his desk.)

Again. Happens.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:25 PM   #20
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makes my feel inside, my grandfather was paralyzed at work when a hydraulic line on a machine burst and slung itself into him. he eventually walked again but always struggled with neck movements and pain. Just unfortunate happens. I agree with Cyon, play the game the best you can. You can't control/prevent everything.
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