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Old 03-19-2007, 10:10 PM   #41
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I was in the Army for 7 years.

Alice, FWIW, I came from a middle class family, and had lots of options besides the military.

Yes, there are "low income" people in the military, but there are people from ALL walks of life also, including professional people from doctors to administrators.
Most are in it because they "believe in this nation".

By you singling out low income people", (your words not mine) you are insinuating that because they come from that background, that they are in the military because they have no choice, not because they believe in something.
That is utter BULLSHIT!

I don't expect you to understand the mindset of most of the people in the military, but at the same time, don't discount a soldiers reason for why he fight if he comes from a "low income".
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
I was in the Army for 7 years.

Alice, FWIW, I came from a middle class family, and had lots of options besides the military.

Yes, there are "low income" people in the military, but there are people from ALL walks of life also, including professional people from doctors to administrators.
Most are in it because they "believe in this nation".

By you singling out low income people", (your words not mine) you are insinuating that because they come from that background, that they are in the military because they have no choice, not because they believe in something.
That is utter BULLSHIT!

I don't expect you to understand the mindset of most of the people in the military, but at the same time, don't discount a soldiers reason for why he fight if he comes from a "low income".
I didn't say every soldier was a poor, uneducated person. I said I think it's an escape from poverty for a lot of people, and that the military has become polluted with a lot of non-patriotic enticements. I also say this due to my own experience listening to people who are thinking about joining the military(i have yet to run across one whose primary concerns were patriotic, though of course you have to throw it in or you're a douche)
Rising up and defending this nation should be something that someone does for their beliefs, and if they believe that the US knows what's best for them, i feel sorry for them. I'm hardly singing out low income people. I think it's fair to say they're more wont to be enticed by money though, since it is what they are lacking, just like mr. joe schmoe may join the military for action because he was raised in the suburbs and wants to experience a tougher life.
I listen to a lot of patriots, and most of the time they don't have much to say besides the usual America is #1 routine, it's just a casual consensus that you run into everwhere, but dare not question. I really don't understand patriotism, I'm sorry. I never cheered at pep rallies either. It just seems like plain conformity to me. I mean, when it comes down to it, what is patriotism really? I have a hard time understanding why someone would love their Country. Love the good things about our country, love goodness for goodness' sake, but don't give it that sort of unconditional love that Patriotism requires. Don't think that America's better than other countries because we're richer, or more advanced, or because you live here. That sort of arrogant thinking is ignorant, I think, and is part of the reason why people can glance over the 300k dead in bomb raid in some non-US country, to read about Anna Nicole Smith or whatever the media's telling them is important.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:50 PM   #43
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K, my turn

i skimmed thru most of this, and it seems like most of ya'll have been a little harsh on alice, i myself did 3 years in the army with a 1- year tour in iraq, the reason i joined........................ needed a job that could support me. (and with only H.S. completed, i didnt have many options) now, i actually come from a very well-off family, my dad was willing to pay for all of my college, rent, yada yada yada, as long as i did well in school, im not much of a moocher, so i decided to do it my way, my way was the army. so like i said, I JOINED FOR THE MONEY, cant beat free rent and meals paid for. so i did my boot camp, my AIT(tech training), then it was off to ft. hood, from ft. hood, i went to iraq, to tell you the truth, i didnt want to go, who the wants to leave everything they know to go live in a sandbox, in a tent, no nothing( i was one of the first over) get shot at, have blow up next to you....yada yada yada...... i dont think anyone really says (OH OH OH....ME ME ME!!!!) besides a select few crazy(i do mean crazy) guys.

now when i got to iraq, my attitude did a 180, to see how those people are living over there, i mean, wow, T.V. just doesnt do those poor folk justice( BTW- QUIT WATCHING THE NEWS, YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO KNOW) i believed in being over there, i fought, did my duty, OBEYED my orders wether i liked them or not, for those people, more so for them than for us.

now im not saying i agree with alice, but everyone can have an opinion, no need to get trash talkin going on, all that does is make you look bad.

i agree with the war, if i got called back, id be there doing whatever i could to help. as would most of you. but what makes this country so great is............




















we are allowed to disagree with our goverment, and not get shot for it...(in most cases).






and on a lighter note, this subject is all over this forum(or subjects close to it) alice just wants to argue, which is ok, a good arguement is healthy, so yall have fun.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Don't think that America's better than other countries because we're richer, or more advanced, or because you live here. That sort of arrogant thinking is ignorant,
i think this country is better because we can have an open argument about it, and you not get thrown in jail , i think its better because we do have a VOLUNTEER army, your not forced to join , i think its better, just because........well , because it is better.
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Old 03-20-2007, 12:42 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by 1ARM1LEG
i think this country is better because we can have an open argument about it, and you not get thrown in jail , i think its better because we do have a VOLUNTEER army, your not forced to join , i think its better, just because........well , because it is better.
i think America's history speaks for itself, and it's definitely one of the most progressive countries of the last century, but i still think there's a lot of flaws and there are Many countries where you have free speech, and no draft, etc.
I agree that America's better than, say..Colombia, but I think it's arrogant to say it's the best country. I also think Patriotism and other sentimentalities make it harder to look at America for what it is, and hence don't leave much room for progress.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:01 AM   #46
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Quote:
I agree that America's better than, say..Colombia, but I think it's arrogant to say it's the best country.
Alice,
Can you present a better one?
Reasons why it is better?

As far as "conformist"?
I'm far from being one, although while I was in the Army I had to conform, because that's what was expected of me to perform my duty at the time.

And no, I don't begrudge you having an opinion, nor the ability to voice it. It's a right that I, my father, my grandfather, and many other soldiers have fought to preserve.

Also, please don't assume that I follow the government blindly, in contrast I am in sharp disagreement with much of what is going on currently, but at a deeper level than whether we're in Iraq or not.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:14 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I mean, when it comes down to it, what is patriotism really? I have a hard time understanding why someone would love their Country. .

For me, patriotism mirrors the feelings one might have for their family. While I feel a much stronger sense of NATIONAL patriotism for our Great Republic of Texas, I imagine that for lots of people it applies to the whole U.S.

The way I feel is that I will stand up for my family no matter what they do. Even should someone in my family commit even the most heinous of offenses I would still like to think that I would support them to the bitter end.

I feel the same about Texas. While I often don't like some of the things that we do as a State, I would retaliate with fierce opposition to any entity that would be aggressive toward us.

Do I think that we are responsible for committing grievous offenses around the world? Yes.

^ Because of this would I look the other way if say, Colombia, decided they wanted to bomb Navasota? no.

Even if we deserve retaliation from nations like Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama and countless others, I'm sure as not going to sit still and take it, regardless of whether or not we have it coming.

I will stand for family and State against all foes, in any circumstance and for any reason.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:20 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
i think America's history speaks for itself, and it's definitely one of the most progressive countries of the last century, but i still think there's a lot of flaws and there are Many countries where you have free speech, and no draft, etc.
I agree that America's better than, say..Colombia, but I think it's arrogant to say it's the best country. I also think Patriotism and other sentimentalities make it harder to look at America for what it is, and hence don't leave much room for progress.
So....What is America to you?

It is a country built on a rebellion. It is a country which was formed to escape governmental control, yet now it is pretty much the same government that it rebelled against. Ironic, yes. It is a country which is trying to do what it can to make the world a better, safe place. And yes, I know you will come back with "we are making it better, safer by force." I do see your thoughts on this and while I do not agree with everything our government does, I will stand behind it as I believe it is the best thing for the future of this world.
Who knows where America or the rest of the world would be now if we had not stepped into the wars we did and are currently in. Do you honestly feel that the world would be better if Hitler had not been stopped? Do you honestly feel that Osama should be running around doing what he does? Do you honestly feel that we should ignore North Korea?(that guy is absolutely crazy btw)
If you do not know what Patriotism is, go ask any WW2 Veteran and actually listen to them.
By the way, since "conforming" is such a bad thing for you, box up your computer, cancel your internet, and move to a third world country. Because, after all, doing what everyone else does is conforming.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:37 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Alice,
Can you present a better one?
Reasons why it is better?

As far as "conformist"?
I'm far from being one, although while I was in the Army I had to conform, because that's what was expected of me to perform my duty at the time.

And no, I don't begrudge you having an opinion, nor the ability to voice it. It's a right that I, my father, my grandfather, and many other soldiers have fought to preserve.

Also, please don't assume that I follow the government blindly, in contrast I am in sharp disagreement with much of what is going on currently, but at a deeper level than whether we're in Iraq or not.
I think it's better to view issue by issue rather Country by Country. That's what I'm sort of tryin to say, people confuse the goodness of the country for the Country. They realize that america has done many great things and then give it this sort of blind trust, and that's what gets exploited and makes it possible for all of the corruption that's prevalent today and always has been and probably always will be as long as the majority of people remain complacent.
Most of the battles for free speech, or even freedom, today aren't fought on battlefields, at least not in america's case. Soldiers serve a purpose, but I'd say it's very far removed from protecting our civil rights, at least in the present.
In regards to a better country, I'll say this. Many countries have better drug policies, I feel, and that's one issue that I feel deeply about, because I think it has a great impact on America and the world. I'd say Holland's policy appears, from what I've read, to work well, But I wouldn't say Holland's the best, or I love holland.

Last edited by AliceInChains02; 03-20-2007 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by cashtown
For me, patriotism mirrors the feelings one might have for their family. While I feel a much stronger sense of NATIONAL patriotism for our Great Republic of Texas, I imagine that for lots of people it applies to the whole U.S.

The way I feel is that I will stand up for my family no matter what they do. Even should someone in my family commit even the most heinous of offenses I would still like to think that I would support them to the bitter end.

I feel the same about Texas. While I often don't like some of the things that we do as a State, I would retaliate with fierce opposition to any entity that would be aggressive toward us.

Do I think that we are responsible for committing grievous offenses around the world? Yes.

^ Because of this would I look the other way if say, Colombia, decided they wanted to bomb Navasota? no.

Even if we deserve retaliation from nations like Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama and countless others, I'm sure as not going to sit still and take it, regardless of whether or not we have it coming.

I will stand for family and State against all foes, in any circumstance and for any reason.
I wouldn't stand up for a family member if they became something that wasn't who I 'loved', I wouldn't say 'you're the best' while they beat me down. I mean, if you found out your family member was someone totally different than who you thought they were, let's say in bad ways, then are they really the person you love? Just like America, would you love America if tomorrow we became a fascist state, but still called it America?
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:46 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingblade92
So....What is America to you?

It is a country built on a rebellion. It is a country which was formed to escape governmental control, yet now it is pretty much the same government that it rebelled against. Ironic, yes. It is a country which is trying to do what it can to make the world a better, safe place. And yes, I know you will come back with "we are making it better, safer by force." I do see your thoughts on this and while I do not agree with everything our government does, I will stand behind it as I believe it is the best thing for the future of this world.
Who knows where America or the rest of the world would be now if we had not stepped into the wars we did and are currently in. Do you honestly feel that the world would be better if Hitler had not been stopped? Do you honestly feel that Osama should be running around doing what he does? Do you honestly feel that we should ignore North Korea?(that guy is absolutely crazy btw)
If you do not know what Patriotism is, go ask any WW2 Veteran and actually listen to them.
By the way, since "conforming" is such a bad thing for you, box up your computer, cancel your internet, and move to a third world country. Because, after all, doing what everyone else does is conforming.
Conforming without reason is bad. Blind conformity. I'm not necessarily saying it's bad to be a patriot, or bad to cheer at a pep rally, but doing it because everyone else is is bad, I think, and I suspect it's the reason behind a lot of it, but maybe that's just me. Maybe people really do think Crosby Cougars and America are the best for good reason.

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Old 03-20-2007, 11:04 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I wouldn't stand up for a family member if they became something that wasn't who I 'loved', I wouldn't say 'you're the best' while they beat me down. I mean, if you found out your family member was someone totally different than who you thought they were, let's say in bad ways, then are they really the person you love? Just like America, would you love America if tomorrow we became a fascist state, but still called it America?
you know...I actually agree with you on this one. (i know i know...just go with it) I can't say I would still love someone (the same) who was the opposite of what I believe in. And I believe that "patriotism (can) be a virtue of the vicious" -Sir Walter Raleigh... however, my love for this country does not exist necessarily because of what our government does. It's because of the freedoms we enjoy (set forth by our grandparents and so on) the people and opportunities here. Our country isn't a country because of our ruthless government, it is because of the people occupying this nation and what they are willing to do to protect themselves and their families.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:08 AM   #53
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you know...I actually agree with you on this one. (i know i know...just go with it) I can't say I would still love someone (the same) who was the opposite of what I believe in. And I believe that "patriotism (can) be a virtue of the vicious" -Sir Walter Raleigh... however, my love for this country does not exist necessarily because of what our government does. It's because of the freedoms we enjoy (set forth by our grandparents and so on) the people and opportunities here. Our country isn't a country because of our ruthless government, it is because of the people occupying this nation and what they are willing to do to protect themselves and their families.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:09 AM   #54
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you know...I actually agree with you on this one. (i know i know...just go with it) I can't say I would still love someone (the same) who was the opposite of what I believe in. And I believe that "patriotism (can) be a virtue of the vicious" -Sir Walter Raleigh... however, my love for this country does not exist necessarily because of what our government does. It's because of the freedoms we enjoy (set forth by our grandparents and so on) the people and opportunities here. Our country isn't a country because of our ruthless government, it is because of the people occupying this nation and what they are willing to do to protect themselves and their families.
So why not just say Bless Freedom? I love freedom just as much as the next person, but I don't see how that ties into patriotism. I'm sure there are patriots in every country, regardless of their freedoms, which makes me think that patriotism really isn't about freedom, but just a general acceptance/concession/whatever.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:18 AM   #55
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So why not just say Bless Freedom? I love freedom just as much as the next person, but I don't see how that ties into patriotism. I'm sure there are patriots in every country, regardless of their freedoms, which makes me think that patriotism really isn't about freedom, but just a general acceptance/concession/whatever.
Patriotism is love of ones country. You simply love the country that you are in for any given number of reasons. Thing is, here in America, we tend to love it for the freedoms we enjoy and the hope is that: although our country does bad, we do alot of what we do for good reasons, those being the safety and security of our people. Not all countries are free and most are definately not as free as America...only in America (and maybe Britain) can you publicly curse and denounce the very ground (country) you walk on without reprimand...
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:23 AM   #56
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Patriotism is love of ones country. You simply love the country that you are in for any given number of reasons. Thing is, here in America, we tend to love it for the freedoms we enjoy and the hope is that: although our country does bad, we do alot of what we do for good reasons, those being the safety and security of our people. Not all countries are free and most are definately not as free as America...only in America (and maybe Britain) can you publicly curse and denounce the very ground (country) you walk on without reprimand...
america and britain only? are you sure?
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:24 AM   #57
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america and britain only? are you sure?
Perhaps others...not omitting them, I just don't know of very many others(Outside of Western Nations). Care to enlighten me?
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:42 AM   #58
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yeah, i wondered about that also. i don't know what the troops can do except get off
There is an internal process that they can challenge there command but it is not something most of them want to deal with. The military is a huge politcal zoo.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:48 AM   #59
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very true....but the reason they are doing it is because they believe in protecting their (and ours) ways of life, not because they are just trying to get paid and that's it. If they just wanted a paycheck there a thousands of ways to earn a living other than serving in the military. Alice doesn't seem to understand that.
I choose not to speak for each soldier. I was simply stating alot of people seem they can and used that to attack another member who was brave enough to write his opinion on here so he could possibly gain some insight. I personally do not care if our soldiers signed up to just get a paycheck, college grants or simply wanted to go shoot nice guns at people. I am glad we have them and I certainly have entertained the idea many times for different reasons as well.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I wouldn't stand up for a family member if they became something that wasn't who I 'loved', I wouldn't say 'you're the best' while they beat me down. I mean, if you found out your family member was someone totally different than who you thought they were, let's say in bad ways, then are they really the person you love? Just like America, would you love America if tomorrow we became a fascist state, but still called it America?

Guess we differ on this one. I've got family ahead of everything.
If my brother robbed banks, raped nuns or killed schoolchildren I would still protect him from retribution.

I might not like him anymore, but that could never preclude me fom defending him against all others.

If my dad did something that would warrant say, a life sentence, the cops would have to come through me to put him in jail.
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