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Old 03-14-2007, 11:18 AM   #1
AliceInChains02
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Fighting for money vs. Fighting for beliefs

So this has been a theme for me for a while now, and I thought I'd post here to see what other people's feelings are.
It seems to me like a lot of our troops don't know, don't care why we're in iraq and don't want to be there. So to me that says they're just staying there because 'it's their job' which leads me to believe they are fighting for their paychecks. Now you can throw in whatever patriotic mumbo jumbo you want and bless the troops, but the way I see it the ones who are there fighting for something they don't believe in, killing people for their paychecks, etc. are worse than the terrorists who die for what they believe in, no matter how crazy it might be. Now I'm not saying the terrorists are good people, as they especially target civilians often times, but at least their motivated by something higher than money and sheer obedience.
I'm not arguing which side's victory will be better, or who has killed more innocent civilians(america probably), but i think i could it be useful for everyone to stop seeing the terrorists as these evil, crazed zealots, when really we're doing the same thing they are, if not worse.
What are your feelings?
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:21 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
So this has been a theme for me for a while now, and I thought I'd post here to see what other people's feelings are.
It seems to me like a lot of our troops don't know, don't care why we're in iraq and don't want to be there. So to me that says they're just staying there because 'it's their job' which leads me to believe they are fighting for their paychecks. Now you can throw in whatever patriotic mumbo jumbo you want and bless the troops, but the way I see it the ones who are there fighting for something they don't believe in, killing people for their paychecks, etc. are worse than the terrorists who die for what they believe in, no matter how crazy it might be. Now I'm not saying the terrorists are good people, as they especially target civilians often times, but at least their motivated by something higher than money and sheer obedience.
I'm not arguing which side's victory will be better, or who has killed more innocent civilians(america probably), but i think i could it be useful for everyone to stop seeing the terrorists as these evil, crazed zealots, when really we're doing the same thing they are, if not worse.
What are your feelings?
Sorry to sound brash, but this is retarded. Soldiers fighting for paychecks? This is so very far from the truth. Firstly, regardless of what you may think, we are accomplishing a few things and learning alot over there, though I agree that we should not be there in the first place, fact is; we are there, so do not suggest that it is all in vain. Secondly, soldiers are not there fighting for a paycheck, I highly doubt one would risk getting blown up, shot up, or otherwise risk permanent bodily harm for a measily $28-35k per year. Such is why suggesting as much is so asinine. These guys are going out every day risking it all for believe it or not, what they believe is neccesary and critical for the continued security and prowess of the United States of America. So needless to say, your idea of them "fighting for paycheck" or being worse than terrorists are far from reality and have no merit what so ever. You also seem to forget the guys fighting over in Afghanistan, this was, from the very beginnning, a noble cause. The government we removed from power allowed the terrorists a base of operations and training ground for the events which occurred on 9/11 and other terrorists activities observed around the world. We both agree that we should not went to Iraq initially, but to attack the integrity of the soldiers serving in Iraq or elsewhere as a whole is both ignorant and unjustified. Soldiers have no dealings in politics, they are in the business of completing missions and those assignments tasked to them. Yes, they carry out the orders mandated them to the best of their abilities and such is required of any effectiver military. Were soldiers to begin to only carry out those order which they-the soldiers- decide they want to do and dismiss those they do not, our military would diminish in capability and prove itself no longer an effective fighting force. sidenote-Soldiers DO however have the ability to NOT carry out those orders they deem immoral but they are held to account by a panel which decides whether or NOT the orders they disobeyed were in fact immoral or not.

EDIT: Had to change a few words for accuracy of what I was saying
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Last edited by CaJuNsOuLjA; 03-14-2007 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
-a lot of our troops don't know, don't care why we're in iraq and don't want to be there

-they are fighting for their paychecks

-killing people for their paychecks

-[Soldiers]are worse than the terrorists who die for what they believe in
I see you are in the same mind of those Cindy Sheehan folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
i think i could it be useful for everyone to stop seeing the terrorists as these evil, crazed zealots
Why? Are they not: Evil, Crazed, Zealots?

By definition, they are perfect matches for all three terms respectively...

e·vil [ee-vuhl] Pronunciation Key
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington Post
Earlier, explosions in Baghdad claimed more than 40 lives, most of them children.link
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo News
A bomb attack near a soccer field in the volatile Iraqi city of Ramadi on Tuesday killed or wounded 19 people, most of them children, police said. State television Iraqiya said 18 children had been killed by a car bomb at the field.link
Is not, by your very own reasoning, the intentional killing of children wrong, evil, IMMORAL?

cra·zy [krey-zee] Pronunciation Key adjective, -zi·er, -zi·est, noun, plural -zies.
–adjective
1. mentally deranged; demented; insane.
2. senseless; impractical; totally unsound: a crazy scheme.
3. Informal. intensely enthusiastic; passionately excited: crazy about baseball.
4. Informal. very enamored or infatuated (usually fol. by about): He was crazy about her.
5. Informal. intensely anxious or eager; impatient: I'm crazy to try those new skis.
6. Informal. unusual; bizarre; singular: She always wears a crazy hat.
7. Slang. wonderful; excellent; perfect: That's crazy, man, crazy.
8. likely to break or fall to pieces.
9. weak, infirm, or sickly.
10. having an unusual, unexpected, or random quality, behavior, result, pattern, etc.: a crazy reel that spins in either direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
A suicide bomber wearing an explosives vest killed 10 people and wounded eight others near Baghdad's Shiite-dominated Sadr city neighborhood, a local police official said.link
I personally think that blowing yourself up would require atleast momentary insanity....

zeal [zeel] Pronunciation Key
–noun
1.fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osama Bin Laden
We praise , seek His help, and ask for His forgiveness.

We seek refuge in from the evils of our souls and our bad deeds.

A person who is guided by will never be misguided by anyone and a person who is misguided by can never be guided by anyone.

I bear witness that there is no but Allah alone, Who has no partner.

cont'd

This clearly indicates the nature of this war. This war is fundamentally religious. The people of the East are Muslims. They sympathized with Muslims against the people of the West, who are the crusaders.

Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation.
link
Read the whole thing to see how he views us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
we're doing the same thing they [the terrorists'] are, if not worse.
Are you serious? I'm really hoping you were being facetious. We didn't attack them first, they started it, we must finish it. Are you insisting that we just let them attack us every now and then w/o response?
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:00 PM   #4
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We praise , seek His help, and ask for His forgiveness.

We seek refuge in from the evils of our souls and our bad deeds.

A person who is guided by will never be misguided by anyone and a person who is misguided by can never be guided by anyone.

I bear witness that there is no but Allah alone, Who has no partner.

Attacks divide world

Amid the huge developments and in the wake of the great strikes that hit the United States in its most important locations in New York and Washington, a huge media clamour has been raised.

This clamour is unprecedented. It conveyed the opinions of people on these events.

People were divided into two parts. The first part supported these strikes against US tyranny, while the second denounced them.

Afterward, when the United States launched the unjust campaign against the Islamic Emirate in Afghanistan, people also split into two parties.

The first supported these campaigns, while the second denounced and rejected them.

These tremendous incidents, which have split people into two parties, are of great interest to the Muslims, since many of the rulings pertain to them.

The polls showed that the vast majority of the sons of the Islamic world were happy about these strikes.

Bin Laden on 11 September attacks

These rulings are closely related to Islam and the acts that corrupt a person's Islam.

Therefore, the Muslims must understand the nature and truth of this conflict so that it will be easy for them to determine where they stand.

While talking about the truth of the conflict, opinion polls in the world have shown that a little more than 80 per cent of Westerners, of Christians in the United States and elsewhere, have been saddened by the strikes that hit the United States.

The polls showed that the vast majority of the sons of the Islamic world were happy about these strikes because they believe that the strikes were in reaction to the huge criminality practiced by Israel and the United States in Palestine and other Muslim countries.

After the strikes on Afghanistan began, these groups changed positions.

Those who were happy about striking the United States felt sad when Afghanistan was hit, and those who felt sad when the United States was hit were happy when Afghanistan was hit. These groups comprise millions of people.

"Barbaric" West

The entire West, with the exception of a few countries, supports this unfair, barbaric campaign, although there is no evidence of the involvement of the people of Afghanistan in what happened in America.

The people of Afghanistan had nothing to do with this matter. The campaign, however, continues to unjustly annihilate the villagers and civilians, children, women, and innocent people.

The entire West, with the exception of a few countries, supports this unfair, barbaric campaign.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:01 PM   #5
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Bin Laden on the West

The positions of the two sides are very clear. Mass demonstrations have spread from the farthest point in the eastern part of the Islamic world to the farthest point in the western part of the Islamic world, and from Indonesia, Philippines, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan to the Arab world and Nigeria and Mauritania.

War "fundamentally religious"

This clearly indicates the nature of this war. This war is fundamentally religious. The people of the East are Muslims. They sympathized with Muslims against the people of the West, who are the crusaders.

Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation.

They are trying to deflect the attention of the Islamic nation from the truth of this conflict.

This fact is proven in the book of Almighty and in the teachings of our messenger, may 's peace and blessings be upon him.

Under no circumstances should we forget this enmity between us and the infidels. For, the enmity is based on creed.

Muslims must stand together

We must be loyal to the believers and those who believe that there is no but Allah.

We should also renounce the atheists and infidels. It suffices me to seek 's help against them.

says: "Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion."

It is a question of faith, not a war against terrorism, as Bush and Blair try to depict it.

Many thieves belonging to this nation were captured in the past. But, nobody moved.

It is a question of faith, not a war against terrorism, as Bush and Blair try to depict it.

Bin Laden on the war

The masses which moved in the East and West have not done so for the sake of Osama.

Rather, they moved for the sake of their religion. This is because they know that they are right and that they resist the most ferocious, serious, and violent Crusade campaign against Islam ever since the message was revealed to Muhammad, may 's peace and blessings be upon.

After this has become clear, the Muslim must know and learn where he is standing vis-a-vis this war.

"Crusader war"

After the US politicians spoke and after the US newspapers and television channels became full of clear crusading hatred in this campaign that aims at mobilizing the West against Islam and Muslims, Bush left no room for doubts or the opinions of journalists, but he openly and clearly said that this war is a crusader war. He said this before the whole world to emphasize this fact.

Anyone who lines up behind Bush in this campaign has committed one of the 10 actions that sully one's Islam.

Bin Laden names names

What can those who allege that this is a war against terrorism say? What terrorism are they speaking about at a time when the Islamic nation has been slaughtered for tens of years without hearing their voices and without seeing any action by them?

But when the victim starts to take revenge for those innocent children in Palestine, Iraq, southern Sudan, Somalia, Kashmir and the Philippines, the rulers' ulema (Islamic leaders) and the hypocrites come to defend the clear blasphemy. It suffices me to seek 's help against them.

The common people have understood the issue, but there are those who continue to flatter those who colluded with the unbelievers to anesthetized the Islamic nation to prevent it from carrying out the duty of jihad so that the word of will be above all words.

The unequivocal truth is that Bush has carried the cross and raised its banner high and stood at the front of the queue.

Anyone who lines up behind Bush in this campaign has committed one of the 10 actions that sully one's Islam.

Muslim scholars are unanimous that allegiance to the infidels and support for them against the believers is one of the major acts that sully Islam.

Latest stage in "Crusade"

There is no power but in . Let us investigate whether this war against Afghanistan that broke out a few days ago is a single and unique one or if it is a link to a long series of crusader wars against the Islamic world.

Following World War I, which ended more than 83 years ago, the whole Islamic world fell under the crusader banner - under the British, French, and Italian governments.

They divided the whole world, and Palestine was occupied by the British.

Palestinians in Ramallah

Since then, and for more than 83 years, our brothers, sons, and sisters in Palestine have been badly tortured.

Hundreds of thousands of them have been killed, and hundreds of thousands of them have been imprisoned or maimed.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:02 PM   #6
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"Crusade" against Chechens

Let us examine the recent developments. Take for example the Chechens.

They are a Muslim people who have been attacked by the Russian bear which embraces the Christian Orthodox faith.

Russians have annihilated the Chechen people in their entirety and forced them to flee to the mountains where they were assaulted by snow and poverty and diseases.

Nonetheless, nobody moved to support them. There is no strength but in .

"Crusade" against Bosnia

This was followed by a war of genocide in Bosnia in sight and hearing of the entire world in the heart of Europe.

For several years our brothers have been killed, our women have been raped, and our children have been massacred in the safe havens of the United Nations and with its knowledge and cooperation.

Those who refer our tragedies today to the United Nations so that they can be resolved are hypocrites who deceive , His Prophet and the believers.

UN "collusion"

Are not our tragedies but caused by the United Nations? Who issued the Partition Resolution on Palestine in 1947 and surrendered the land of Muslims to the Jews? It was the United Nations in its resolution in 1947.

Those who claim that they are the leaders of the Arabs and continue to appeal to the United Nations have disavowed what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad, 's peace and blessings be upon him.

Those who refer things to the international legitimacy have disavowed the legitimacy of the Holy Book and the tradition of Prophet Muhammad, 's peace and blessings be upon him.

This is the United Nations from which we have suffered greatly. Under no circumstances should any Muslim or sane person resort to the United Nations. The United Nations is nothing but a tool of crime.

We are being massacred everyday, while the United Nations continues to sit idly by.

Kashmir and Chechens

Our brothers in Kashmir have been subjected to the worst forms of torture for over 50 years. They have been massacred, killed, and raped. Their blood has been shed and their houses have been trespassed upon.

Kashmir tension

Still, the United Nations continues to sit idly by.

Today, and without any evidence, the United Nations passes resolutions supporting unjust and tyrannical America, which oppresses these helpless people who have emerged from a merciless war at the hands of the Soviet Union.

Let us look at the second war in Chechnya, which is still underway. The entire Chechen people are being embattled once again by this Russian bear.

The humanitarian agencies, even the US ones, demanded that President Clinton should stop supporting Russia.

However, Clinton said that stopping support for Russia did not serve US interests.

A year ago, Putin demanded that the cross and the Jews should stand by him. He told them: You must support us and thank us because we are waging a war against Muslim fundamentalism.

The enemies are speaking very clearly. While this is taking place, the leaders of the region hide and are ashamed to support their brothers.

East Timor and Somalia

Let us examine the stand of the West and the United Nations in the developments in Indonesia when they moved to divide the largest country in the Islamic world in terms of population.

We should view events not as separate links, but as links in a long series of conspiracies, a war of annihilation.

Bin Laden on "Crusade"

This criminal, Kofi Annan, was speaking publicly and putting pressure on the Indonesian government, telling it: You have 24 hours to divide and separate East Timor from Indonesia.

Otherwise, we will be forced to send in military forces to separate it by force.

The crusader Australian forces were on Indonesian shores, and in fact they landed to separate East Timor, which is part of the Islamic world.

Therefore, we should view events not as separate links, but as links in a long series of conspiracies, a war of annihilation in the true sense of the word.

In Somalia, on the excuse of restoring hope, 13,000 of our brothers were killed. In southern Sudan, hundreds of thousands were killed.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:02 PM   #7
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Palestinians and Iraqis

But when we move to Palestine and Iraq, there can be no bounds to what can be said.

Over one million children were killed in Iraq. The killing is continuing.

As for what is taking place in Palestine these days, I can only say we have no one but to complain to.

What is taking place cannot be tolerated by any nation. I do not say from the nations of the human race, but from other creatures, from the animals. They would not tolerate what is taking place.

A confidant of mine told me that he saw a butcher slaughtering a camel in front of another camel.

The other camel got agitated while seeing the blood coming out of the other camel. Thus, it burst out with rage and bit the hand of the man and broke it.

How can the weak mothers in Palestine endure the killing of their children in front of their eyes by the unjust Jewish executioners with US support and with US aircraft and tanks?

Israel and US "are one"

Those who distinguish between America and Israel are the real enemies of the nation. They are traitors who betrayed and His prophet, and who betrayed their nation and the trust placed in them. They anesthetize the nation.

These battles cannot be viewed in any case whatsoever as isolated battles, but rather, as part of a chain of the long, fierce, and ugly crusader war.

Every Muslim must stand under the banner of There is no but Allah and Muhammad is 's Prophet.

Bin Laden's signature

I remind you of what our Prophet, may 's peace and blessings upon him, told Ibn Abbas, may be pleased with him.

He told him: Boy, I am going to teach you a few words. Obey , He will protect you. Obey Him, you will find Him on your side. If you ask for something, ask . If you seek help, seek the help of .

You should know that if all people come together to help you, they will only help you with something that has already preordained for you.

And if they assemble to harm you, they will only harm you with something that has already preordained for you. wrote man's fate and it will never change.

I Tell the Muslims who did their utmost during these weeks: You must continue along the same march.

Your support for us will make us stronger and will further support your brothers in Afghanistan.

Exert more efforts in combating this unprecedented war crime.

Fear , O Muslims and rise to support your religion. Islam is calling on you: O Muslims, O Muslims, O Muslims.

bear witness that I have conveyed the message. bear witness that I have conveyed the message. bear witness that I have conveyed the message.

's peace and blessings be upon you.

link
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:51 PM   #8
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They're not doing their 'job'. They're doing their duty. A soldier is committed to following orders not to make political decisions.

I've come to the conclusion that we're there to protect American interests not to make the world a better place or to fight terrorists. Our government certainly isn't trying to improve conditions right here in our own country (they could if they cared). It's all about the quick $$ and trying to keeping yourself on top by using force.

Future battles will be won economically, not with military.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:11 PM   #9
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I guess we (America) could have laid down after 9-11 and taken our beating and let the rest of the world know we are weak. Then other terrorists could come and attack you and your family Aliceinchains02.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:17 PM   #10
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Alice...you are too f ucking whacked out to even converse with... to add to what maskale said; if we dont fight them there, we'll just end up fighting them here......it's not IF we fight....it's WHERE. I for one vote for fighting on their soil and not ours. You sir, need to come down a bit before you make yourself look like an anti-American troop basher, 'cause I don't think that will fly too long here!
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jus10
Alice...you are too f ucking whacked out to even converse with... to add to what maskale said; if we dont fight them there, we'll just end up fighting them here......it's not IF we fight....it's WHERE. I for one vote for fighting on their soil and not ours. You sir, need to come down a bit before you make yourself look like an anti-American troop basher, 'cause I don't think that will fly too long here!
Already there in my eyes....
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Already there in my eyes....
mine too...I just didn't want to speak for everyone.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:09 PM   #13
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oh, and to add a bit.... a good friend of mine was telling me 2 weeks ago how he was going to west Baghdad in a week and "couldn't f uckin' wait" were his words!!! He even wants a helmet cam to wear!! He told me everyone he knows feels the same. They want to kick some over there, so f uckers like you over here can about they don't know about! But that's your right to do so, and IT IS OUR TROOPS CHOICE to fight for what they believe in.... and that is America! not a paycheck you douche!!!
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jus10
oh, and to add a bit.... a good friend of mine was telling me 2 weeks ago how he was going to west Baghdad in a week and "couldn't f uckin' wait" were his words!!! He even wants a helmet cam to wear!! He told me everyone he knows feels the same. They want to kick some over there, so f uckers like you over here can about they don't know about! But that's your right to do so, and IT IS OUR TROOPS CHOICE to fight for what they believe in.... and that is America! not a paycheck you douche!!!
did you ever think maybe they just want to "kick some " because they're trained sociopaths? but yeah, i'm glad they are over there fighting because what if they had never invaded? we might all be bowing to Saddam
their beliefs are sold to them, douche.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
did you ever think maybe they just want to "kick some " because they're trained sociopaths? but yeah, i'm glad they are over there fighting because what if they had never invaded? we might all be bowing to Saddam
their beliefs are sold to them, douche.
and I suppose you are the only one who is smart enough to cultivate your own beliefs? They join the armed forces because of what they believe and the need to protect it...how the f uck can you say their beliefs are sold to them when they have them to begin with????
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:37 PM   #16
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They're not doing their 'job'. They're doing their duty. A soldier is committed to following orders not to make political decisions.

I've come to the conclusion that we're there to protect American interests not to make the world a better place or to fight terrorists. Our government certainly isn't trying to improve conditions right here in our own country (they could if they cared). It's all about the quick $$ and trying to keeping yourself on top by using force.

Future battles will be won economically, not with military.
Yeah, I agree- they are doing their 'job'. That's what I take issue with. It's like with cops, they have to follow all the rules, but not necessarily believe in them. How can you arrest someone, send them on their way to prison, for something you might think is ridiculous? If people were always willing to just give in because it's the rules, or it's their job, then I doubt society would ever have gotten very far. I guess the whole idea of soldiers and police is having people you can trust not to think for themselves, or at least not act on those thoughts.
Here's an example to show how I feel. Let's say I started working at a big company, and this job was something that I felt I was doing good by. But then I found out that the company really has a dark, seedy side, and I'm helping them out by working there. Would it be right if I continued to work there, just because the money's good, most people perceive the work as being good, and it's just much easier to tuck away my feelings? No, it would be wrong, I think.
But maybe most soldiers Really do believe they're doing the right thing there and the morale Is very high.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jus10
Alice...you are too f ucking whacked out to even converse with...........You sir, need to come down a bit before you make yourself look like an anti-American troop basher
Yep.


Also, good thing he is in America, because if he was under saddam's rule they would take his family at gun point and make them break his arms for typing such a think about the country/gov. and troops. Oh, they don't want to break his arms, no problem, they will just keep shooting relatives till they find someone that does break his arms.

I have seen the vids of what went on under saddam, it is some sick .
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jus10
and I suppose you are the only one who is smart enough to cultivate your own beliefs? They join the armed forces because of what they believe and the need to protect it...how the f uck can you say their beliefs are sold to them when they have them to begin with????
Okay, you said they are fighting for what they believe in, and that is America. How are they fighting for America?
They might believe they are fighting for America because that's what's told to them, but like I said those beliefs are sold to them, and I doubt any of them can correlate patriotism with what they are doing.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:44 PM   #19
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Yep.


Also, good thing he is in America, because if he was under saddam's rule they would take his family at gun point and make them break his arms for typing such a think about the country/gov. and troops. Oh, they don't want to break his arms, no problem, they will just keep shooting relatives till they find someone that does break his arms.

I have seen the vids of what went on under saddam, it is some sick .
have you seen videos from the 100 or so other uncivilized countries that we didn't invade?
It's a good thing you aren't in Africa, because you'd starve.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:49 PM   #20
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One of my very best friends shipped of to Ft. Benning Ga. today to start boot camp.

I've known him since we were 9-years-old and he is one of the smartest people I know.

He graduated from Trinity U. in San Antonio.

Went to UTI after that and got an auto tech degree.

Did a year at Baylor law and got bored with it.

Same thing after a semester toward an MBA at Baylor.

He'll do his boot camp and then start officer candidacy school.

He has requested infantry in Iraq because he believes in America.
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