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Old 03-07-2007, 04:10 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
you know, cajun, for someone who so prided themselves on their objectivity in past threads, it's strange to me that you would believe the Bible. i'm still very curious to hear what it is that made you "faithful".
it's too bad your objectivity can find no ground on this argument that's largely based on morality and human behavior, but I still think you'd be able to participate in Bible related questions, or do you not know much about it?
Sorry to disappoint. Now as far as my belief's on the Bible, I do have questions. This is based on the history of the text and certain dynamics regarding the cannonization and institution of the Bible as a single work. See Lamentations for why I know that I am not the first to do so nor harming my relationship with due to. As far as my objectivity, I actually do consider myself pretty objective and you should be able to vouch for that based on the fact that there have been numerous times where even yourself and I have been in agreement on certain things in past threads. I know enough to hold an intelligent conversation about the Bible but am not willing to type as much as Ramius does on the subject and I commend him for his patience and dedication as a matter of fact. Hence the reason I said that I would be willing to hold a dialogue of this subject but am not willing to type the amount necessary to make my point. If you go back, no matter how clear his assertions or accurate his analogies, the more 'nit-picky' and superfluous the questions persist. He is forced to clarify point after point in text and that is more than I am willing to do particularly being that I am in fact in my office and have work to attend to. Politics is easy because I can shoot a response and back it with tangible, clear evidence. Religion and the Bible are different for the all the obvious reasons. Again, thank you Ramius and I actually appreciate it mostly because I am learning a few things here myself, particularly how to respond to certain types of questions in a tactful and clear manner on the basis of those principles observed in the Bible.

Ramius:
I love the story of David, he is the reason I know that my personal experience is not unique. (I & II Samuel for those of you who are curious)
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:10 PM   #162
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Sorry to disappoint. Now as far as my belief's on the Bible, I do have questions. This is based on the history of the text and certain dynamics regarding the cannonization and institution of the Bible as a single work. See lamentations for why I know that I am not the first to do so nor harming my relationship with due to. As far as my objectivity, I actually do consider myself pretty objective and you should be able to vouch for that based on the fact that there have been numerous times where even yourself and I have been in agreement on certain things in past threads. I know enough to hold an intelligent conversation about the Bible but am not willing to type as much as Ramius does on the subject and I commend him for his patience and dedication as a matter of fact. Hence the reason I said that I would be willing to hold a dialogue of this subject but am not willing to type the amount necessary to make my point. If you go back, no matter how clear his assertions or accurate his analogies, the more 'nit-picky' and superfluous the questions persist. He is forced to clarify point after point in text and that is more than I am willing to do particularly being that I am in fact in my office and have work to attend to. Politics is easy because I can shoot a response and back it with tangible, clear evidence. Religion and the Bible are different for the all the obvious reasons. Again, thank you Ramius and I actually appreciate it mostly because I am learning a few things here myself, particularly how to respond to certain types of questions in a tactful and clear manner on the basis of those principles observed in the Bible.
How am I nitpicking and being superfluous? I beg you to show me. I don't think my questions were insignificant or irrelevant to the point where you could call them "nitpicking" or "superfluous".
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:15 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
How am I nitpicking and being superfluous? I beg you to show me. I don't think my questions were insignificant or irrelevant to the point where you could call them "nitpicking" or "superfluous".
Because many of they had already been answered within what he had just written. Examples to follow...
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:17 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Because many of they had already been answered within what he had just written. Examples to follow...
i eagerly await
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:28 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
It states clearly that this life is not meant to be a walk in the park, in fact, it is supposed to be difficult, because it is the struggle that builds character and faith. You are supposed to have more than you can carry, that you learn to ask in Faith for help, that He may give it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains
Struggle builds faith? How? Perhaps if you believe that 's giving you the power to endure the struggle. Post #102
You answered your own question and the question was not warrented due to the axiomatic nature of the concept in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains
This story reminds of A Clockwork Orange and the great question of the movie; choice. “Choice! The boy has no real choice, has he? Self interest, fear of physical pain drove him to that grotesque act of self abasement. Its insincerity was clearly to be seen. He ceases also to be a creature capable of moral choice.”
And this came from a priest, btw. It seems to me that "choice" also becomes an illusion when the prospect of eternal is brought into the equation.

Another quote from that movie "Does want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses to be bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has the good imposed upon him?" Post #128
This was not posed as a question but definately alludes one and the way Ramius layed out the argument which prompted the question makes the redundant the alluded question. Which was "How do you have a choice if you are fearful of going to were you to choose wrong?".

Here's a quick glimpse of Ramius' point which prompted the question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
He told a story about a lady named Sue (or whatever) who was married to a guy named Frank, Frank had a list of expectations for her, at 3pm she was to do this, at 4pm do that, at 7pm have this done and so on and so forth until her life was dictated for her, and she did not have the freedom to make her own choices. She loved him, but she was always nervous that she would not fulfill his expectations and was always looking at that list. One day Frank died, and she was so lost without him, he made all the decisions for her, that she couldn't function without him, so she had him embalmed and 'mounted' in her living room. Even though he was dead she would ask him if it was ok for her to do this, or if she could go there and see this person or that one..

Well one day she went on vacation to Europe and met Bill... and they fell in Love, and Bill cared for her without all of the demands that Frank would place on her, however she found her self doing those same things for Bill not because she had to, but because she wanted to. So they fell in love, and they got married, and they decided to live in America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
As far as having these things. Without emotion He would be, in a sense, a Robot or a Computer. He is a Being.. what kind of being, I dont know, for my comprehension He is omniciant, any 'being' has these basic emotions. While it could be argued that He could let these emotions get the best of Him and cause Him to make irrational decisions, I have yet to find an instance of that even when, as a human, you would think he Should. (Starving babies dying. kids getting molested etc etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains
How do you mean that he doesn't let the emotions get the best of him? He gets angry and wipes out entire cities, the entire earth even. That includes all the innocent children, puppy dogs, etc. That seems irrational to me.
I mean seriously, what kind of question is this? You are asking the question without regard to the circumstances which prompted such an event. It is not as if the people of either Sodom or Gomohrea (sp?) exhibited characteristics seen in holy or even civilized people. Understand the circumstances before you critize the action/result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains
Should we to relate to ? Is that a good thing? Might it be better to think of as some sort of ultimate truth to strive for? Maybe everything is really black and white code, and we only pump magic into it for lack of understanding?
Here is verse from the Book of John chapter 14 beginning verse 20:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Notice the use of the word "love", you do not fear those you love except for perhaps in a respectful manner. The fear that can be observed between a father and son. The son does not fear taht the father will hurt him but rather, an overwhelming respect for someone who in fact derserves this respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
wants the Choice of Goodness, thats why we were given a free will. If He merely wanted 'good people' He would not have given us freedom of choice. As far as goes, once you have been saved, you are exempted from ... I can see how some may misunderstand that but it is the truth, once you are saved no longer exists for you soooo you can't really 'do good' out of fear of going there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains
I was raised thinking that not only do you have to be saved, but you have to actively ask for forgiveness for every sin. Is this not true?
Would you consider it a "choice" if I asked you to get me a coffee, but told you if you didn't I'd light you ablaze? Or asked you to believe in me? That seems more like a subtle sort of command to me. Post #133
Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, is it not still, effectively, a "choice" in that you are the one making the decision upon what you want to do and not necessarily being under any durress? Sure you may like the result of a "bad" decision, but you had the choice. There are consequences to every action taken (Newton's 3rd Law off Motion) so you will always be presented with a question with which the decision you make may or may not manifest favorable results. Fact of life. Again, the question could have gone without being said. These are merely a few but if you really go back and re-read the thread, many of your questions have, IMO, been answered very effectively only to be rebuffed by questions that I personally think are more rhetorical than genuine inquiring. Thankfully Ramius takes a scholarly approach to inquiring minds. I am not trying to be condescending in any way, I just personally think that many of your questions prove themselves redundant but then again, I grew up around the church and if you are genuinely curious then I apologize.
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:56 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
You answered your own question and the question was not warrented due to the axiomatic nature of the concept in question.
Wtf? warranted? lol. we're having a discussion, excuse me for being Off Topic a bit.
Quote:
This was not posed as a question but definately alludes one and the way Ramius layed out the argument which prompted the question makes the redundant the alluded question. Which was "How do you have a choice if you are fearful of going to were you to choose wrong?".
Okay, i don't get what your point is? Again, we're having a discussion, so excuse me for relating personal examples in correlation with the person who i speak with.
Quote:
I mean seriously, what kind of question is this? You are asking the question without regard to the circumstances which prompted such an event. It is not as if the people of either Sodom or Gomohrea (sp?) exhibited characteristics seen in holy or even civilized people. Understand the circumstances before you critize the action/result.
I'm trying to get a feel for , and why he does things. I'm saying they seem irrational to me. I'm hoping he will explain them to me. That's the situation. Who says I refer to Sodom or Gomorra? Even if the whole town was living in sin, my question is how does that justify complete annihilation from a Just, Loving ? I can't wrap my mind around it, but maybe like David said, I'm just a dog that can't understand the Big Man's jibber jabber. :P j/k
Quote:
Notice the use of the word "love", you do not fear those you love except for perhaps in a respectful manner. The fear that can be observed between a father and son. The son does not fear taht the father will hurt him but rather, an overwhelming respect for someone who in fact derserves this respect.
I don't see any connection at all between fear and love. I think they are polar opposites. And the love shows for man seems to shrink comparison to his violent wrath and promise of eternal damnation to those who can't believe in Him.




Quote:
Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, is it not still, effectively, a "choice" in that you are the one making the decision upon what you want to do and not necessarily being under any durress? Sure you may like the result of a "bad" decision, but you had the choice.
It's not a choice? Well that was my point.
Why do you think people Choose to Believe in and others Do not?
Quote:
There are consequences to every action taken (Newton's 3rd Law off Motion) so you will always be presented with a question with which the decision you make may or may not manifest favorable results. Fact of life. Again, the question could have gone without being said. These are merely a few but if you really go back and re-read the thread, many of your questions have, IMO, been answered very effectively only to be rebuffed by questions that I personally think are more rhetorical than genuine inquiring. Thankfully Ramius takes a scholarly approach to inquiring minds. I am not trying to be condescending in any way, I just personally think that many of your questions prove themselves redundant but then again, I grew up around the church and if you are genuinely curious then I apologize.
What do you mean the question could have gone without being said? I really don't see any clear points being made here, you're the one nitpicking my questions. Trying to determine which ones are worth asking based on what? Your opinion?
I don't know why you would want to Assume that these are rhetorical when I clearly stated my intentions in the first page of this thread.

I don't see how any of my questions are redundant? I think these questions are hard to figure out, but far from redundant. You pointed out one of my stories as being redundant, but it wasn't even a question i was asking, but relating from a story.

Oh, and apology accepted:icon_smil
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:24 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Wtf? warranted? lol. we're having a discussion, excuse me for being Off Topic a bit.

Okay, i don't get what your point is? Again, we're having a discussion, so excuse me for relating personal examples in correlation with the person who i speak with.
Dude. You answered the question yourself, so why reiterate it? It's stupid. I'm not even in the mood to sit here and meticulously go through and point out the most intricate of ideas and concepts within this discussion of any note but your killin' me Petey. If you didn't get the point I was making about things you said, I apologize again because to do so almost seems futile at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I'm trying to get a feel for , and why he does things. I'm saying they seem irrational to me. I'm hoping he will explain them to me. That's the situation. Who says I refer to Sodom or Gomorra? Even if the whole town was living in sin, my question is how does that justify complete annihilation from a Just, Loving ? I can't wrap my mind around it, but maybe like David said, I'm just a dog that can't understand the Big Man's jibber jabber. :P j/k
No, you are not necessarily wrong for thinking as you think, but you are seemingly criticizing without having read the full text so as to know the full scope of the context of any given passage. Sodom and Gomorra happened to have been towns destroyed by , that is why the reference to Sodom & Gomorra. He is a just loving , just I suppose is a relative term. They were the subject of 's judgement and he solely has the sovereign power to make such judgements at his leisure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I don't see any connection at all between fear and love. I think they are polar opposites. And the love shows for man seems to shrink comparison to his violent wrath and promise of eternal damnation to those who can't believe in Him.
Re-read Genesis please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
It's not a choice? Well that was my point.
Why do you think people Choose to Believe in and others Do not?
And it was a flawed assertion, in my opinion...love and reverence would be the reason for this choice or atleast such is the case based on my personal experience. Faith is the key component for this choice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
What do you mean the question could have gone without being said? I really don't see any clear points being made here, you're the one nitpicking my questions. Trying to determine which ones are worth asking based on what? Your opinion?
I don't know why you would want to Assume that these are rhetorical when I clearly stated my intentions in the first page of this thread.
All I am doing is pointing out questions that I thought were a little ridiculous, not making personal points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I don't see how any of my questions are redundant? I think these questions are hard to figure out, but far from redundant. You pointed out one of my stories as being redundant, but it wasn't even a question i was asking, but relating from a story.

Oh, and apology accepted:icon_smil
And I qualified as much but said that it alluded a question. You're a funny guy.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:14 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Dude. You answered the question yourself, so why reiterate it? It's stupid. I'm not even in the mood to sit here and meticulously go through and point out the most intricate of ideas and concepts within this discussion of any note but your killin' me Petey. If you didn't get the point I was making about things you said, I apologize again because to do so almost seems futile at times.
I know you're not in the mood to sit here and point things out to me, since we've been having this discussion for a good 2 hours now and you haven't pointed one Significant thing yet. You said I'm asking "'nit-picky' and superfluous" questions and Ramius "is forced to clarify point after point in text", but all I can see is a normal discussion with you nit picking the questions I deem important based on what you think our conversation should be like.


Quote:
No, you are not necessarily wrong for thinking as you think, but you are seemingly criticizing without having read the full text so as to know the full scope of the context of any given passage. Sodom and Gomorra happened to have been towns destroyed by , that is why the reference to Sodom & Gomorra. He is a just loving , just I suppose is a relative term. They were the subject of 's judgement and he solely has the sovereign power to make such judgements at his leisure.
Are you well versed enough to say that is "just" and "loving" and back that up? Though Justice may be relative to a point, everyone seems to have their opinion on justice these days, so why not apply that to the bible? Because 's so much more morally superior that he isn't even judged by the same restrictive morals as us and can kill all of the innocent people he wants?

Quote:
Re-read Genesis please.
Does Genesis explain how you can love and fear someone at the same time. Does it also explain how you can smile and frown at the same time?


Quote:
And it was a flawed assertion, in my opinion...love and reverence would be the reason for this choice or atleast such is the case based on my personal experience. Faith is the key component for this choice though.
How is faith acquired, this is what I want to know(seriously-i'm not even trying to make any sort of point with this question)


Quote:
All I am doing is pointing out questions that I thought were a little ridiculous, not making personal points.
You said you would show excerpts of me "nitpicking", and you failed to do so.
You criticized me for
Answering my Own Question
Being Redundant
not regarding "the circumstances which prompted such an event" (i don't know where you get this from. How do you know what I'm regarding? If you say that me thinking is unjust for wiping out cities is false because the city that you Think i'm referring to was depraved or whatever, then that seems to implicate you think did not harm innocent people, and that you think it's just to kill people for sins that would be regarded as trivial today. Wiki excerpt regarding sins of people of Sodom and Gomorrah-they were 'generally depraved and uncompromisingly greedy. Rabbinic writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and outsiders' So you think economic crimes is fair play for capital punishment? Or, oh wait, 's not held to our Simple Human Moral standards, and works in mysterious and violent ways.

Quote:
And I qualified as much but said that it alluded a question. You're a funny guy.
I didn't say you didn't(wasn't the argument), but my point remains(unaddressed) that your criticisms were mediocre.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:45 PM   #169
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you said
"many of they had already been answered within what he[David] had just written."
regarding questions i asked, but you showed none. you showed one non-question(we've already been over this, though) that you saw as Redundant(redundancy, as in to cover something from a different angle in a conversation) because David had related a story about the same thing, and I was merely relating from something that I saw the same point in. You say why reiterate this, it's not reiterating, it's relating. He shows his perspective on things and relates to stories, and I do the same things, maybe even about the same subject or same Point since it's what we're discussing! It's funny to me that you would even attack my "reiterating" a statement and just shows me how very little material you found to back up your statements.
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:36 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I know you're not in the mood to sit here and point things out to me, since we've been having this discussion for a good 2 hours now and you haven't pointed one Significant thing yet. You said I'm asking "'nit-picky' and superfluous" questions and Ramius "is forced to clarify point after point in text", but all I can see is a normal discussion with you nit picking the questions I deem important based on what you think our conversation should be like.
As I said before, it's my opinion, I layed out a few of the instances I was referring to and if you don't see it then you just don't see it. I thought your questions, with the exception of a few, were useless and were more rhetorical in nature than inquiring-as I said before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Are you well versed enough to say that is "just" and "loving" and back that up? Though Justice may be relative to a point, everyone seems to have their opinion on justice these days, so why not apply that to the bible? Because 's so much more morally superior that he isn't even judged by the same restrictive morals as us and can kill all of the innocent people he wants?
Story of Noah:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible | Genesis 6:5
5... saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with .

10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before , and the earth was filled with violence.

12And looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13And said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee
.

19And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22Thus did Noah; according to all that commanded him, so did he.

Even though the Jews had forsaken him (The Lord) by disobeying his 2nd Commandment-creating a golden calf and worshipping it as a after himself had freed them of the grasp of the Egyptions as slaves- spared them and forgave them their transgressions allowing them to continue their path to the promised land with a bit of punitive action ofcourse, but they continued no less. See Exodus. Read the entire book for understanding.

The story of David is a great example because no matter how bad the trespass or how much David screwed up, he was ALWAYS forgiven due to the fact that through it all, he loved and was truly remorseful for what it was he had done. Again, read the story for understanding. And please actually read and understand it before you rebut, there will be a quiz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Does Genesis explain how you can love and fear someone at the same time. Does it also explain how you can smile and frown at the same time?
I said fear as in a respectful type of fear and you still flip it as though I had said fear as in the fear you would have of someone who intends to harm you

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible | Genesis 15
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible | Deuteronomy 6:5
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
How is faith acquired, this is what I want to know(seriously-i'm not even trying to make any sort of point with this question)
The answer is in the word itself. Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing without tangible supporting evidence is simply a decision. You decide to take a leap of faith. It is the same as having faith that the next time you go out riding, it will not be your last knowing full well the contrary possibilities yet going out and doing it anyway because of that gut feeling that you have that everything will be alright. Faith is a decision.
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:41 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
You said you would show excerpts of me "nitpicking", and you failed to do so.
You criticized me for
Answering my Own Question
Being Redundant
not regarding "the circumstances which prompted such an event" (i don't know where you get this from. How do you know what I'm regarding? If you say that me thinking is unjust for wiping out cities is false because the city that you Think i'm referring to was depraved or whatever, then that seems to implicate you think did not harm innocent people, and that you think it's just to kill people for sins that would be regarded as trivial today.
1) No, I did not fail to do so...perhaps you should look introspectively for the reasons you did not understand those items I posted and how they relate to and corroborate what I was saying.

2) did not harm innocents, he spared them. See Genesis 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
Genesis 18:20
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Is this not evidence that our Lord is in fact just? He was willing to spare the city for the sake of 10 righteous individuals, were he to find them. He destroyed the cities because he could not, there were none, he DID however spare Lot and his family. Read the book Alice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Wiki excerpt regarding sins of people of Sodom and Gomorrah-they were 'generally depraved and uncompromisingly greedy. Rabbinic writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and outsiders' So you think economic crimes is fair play for capital punishment? Or, oh wait, 's not held to our Simple Human Moral standards, and works in mysterious and violent ways.
Why not go straight to the source? You get your information about the Bible from wiki yet you cannot go to the Bible and ciite the actual verses which spoke to those sins and crimes being committed by the individuals within the cities in question. Besides, Wiki has been known to contain false information which is why neither I nor many teachers use it any longer. The reason being that information seen in Wikipedia is comprised of information updated and entered by members of the site, the information is not always verified. Here's an article on the matter.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:02 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
As I said before, it's my opinion, I layed out a few of the instances I was referring to and if you don't see it then you just don't see it. I thought your questions, with the exception of a few, were useless and were more rhetorical in nature than inquiring-as I said before.
Well, I think you did a very poor job of backing up your point, but that's just my opinion and I'm obligated to think so. I guess once again, I'm blind and you can see. But, like I said, all I see is allusions with very poor backing and excuses for not backing them, but I guess to argue this would mean breaking down each sentence we've typed and I'm in no mood for that as well.





Quote:
I said fear as in a respectful type of fear and you still flip it as though I had said fear as in the fear you would have of someone who intends to harm you
Okay, I guess the Bible adds a new meaning to the word "fear", but to me fear is anything but respect. Respect is based on love.

Fear is defined as
a. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
b. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
3. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
4. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
v. feared, fear·ing, fears
v.tr.
1. To be afraid or frightened of.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive about: feared the test results.
3. To be in awe of; revere.
4. To consider probable; expect: I fear you are wrong. I fear I have bad news for you.
5. Archaic To feel fear within (oneself).
v.intr.
1. To be afraid.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive.


So 2 out of over 10 definitions mention "awe" and "reverence", but I think that completely goes against the rest of the definitions and makes no sense. It's not fear in the common sense of the word and should not be used to show a meaning that is so against it's counterparts.
And I think much of the "fear" that I mention regarding the bible is truly a legitimate fear. You don't respect eternal Hellfire, a violent death, or pain and suffering in general. You fear them.

Quote:
The answer is in the word itself. Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing without tangible supporting evidence is simply a decision. You decide to take a leap of faith. It is the same as having faith that the next time you go out riding, it will not be your last knowing full well the contrary possibilities yet going out and doing it anyway because of that gut feeling that you have that everything will be alright. Faith is a decision.
Okay, so people who have faith in , don't necessarily know that he's real, they just have a sort of gut feeling? Doesn't that gut feeling sometimes turn out to be wrong though(i.e. that time you go out on your bike and wreck), **doesn't that mean there's no merit in faith?**

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Old 03-08-2007, 12:10 PM   #173
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Okay, so you laid out your forgiveness text, here's something I'd like you to find the same love and forgiveness in.

11:3 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: .
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
11:8 And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.
11:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and he LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:18 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
1) No, I did not fail to do so...perhaps you should look introspectively for the reasons you did not understand those items I posted and how they relate to and corroborate what I was saying.
You're right, I think I'm dumb.
Quote:
2) did not harm innocents, he spared them. See Genesis 18
See the " kills babies" text


Quote:
Is this not evidence that our Lord is in fact just? He was willing to spare the city for the sake of 10 righteous individuals, were he to find them. He destroyed the cities because he could not, there were none, he DID however spare Lot and his family. Read the book Alice!
He may have been Somewhat Just on this particular occasion for maybe sparing 10 people he did not find worthy of death for 'depravity' and 'economic' crimes.

Quote:
Why not go straight to the source? You get your information about the Bible from wiki yet you cannot go to the Bible and ciite the actual verses which spoke to those sins and crimes being committed by the individuals within the cities in question. Besides, Wiki has been known to contain false information which is why neither I nor many teachers use it any longer. The reason being that information seen in Wikipedia is comprised of information updated and entered by members of the site, the information is not always verified. Here's an article on the matter.
So now we're attacking wikipedia?
I don't have a bible in my house, except for in the bathroom and most of the pages are torn out-almost time to get a new one(JK!!) No, but seriously there's plenty of sites online for getting bible verses from when I need them and the Bible probably has more "false information" than wiki could ever aspire to have, since it too is written by it's users.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:36 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Well, I think you did a very poor job of backing up your point, but that's just my opinion and I'm obligated to think so. I guess once again, I'm blind and you can see. But, like I said, all I see is allusions with very poor backing and excuses for not backing them, but I guess to argue this would mean breaking down each sentence we've typed and I'm in no mood for that as well.
Never said you were dumb, you just didn't comprehend the point I was making which could very well be by no fault of your own but rather my not communicating that point more clearly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Okay, I guess the Bible adds a new meaning to the word "fear", but to me fear is anything but respect. Respect is based on love.

Fear is defined as
a. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
b. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
3. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
4. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
v. feared, fear·ing, fears
v.tr.
1. To be afraid or frightened of.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive about: feared the test results.
3. To be in awe of; revere.
4. To consider probable; expect: I fear you are wrong. I fear I have bad news for you.
5. Archaic To feel fear within (oneself).
v.intr.
1. To be afraid.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive.
There you go with that again. You state that the Bible adds a new meaning to the word fear but contradict yourself in the very next offering because within the defintion it says flatly: Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power. or To be in awe of; revere making your statement whereby you said "I guess the Bible adds a new meaning to the word "fear", but to me fear is anything but respect" absolutely ridiculous. Come on man! Read! Comprehend!


Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
So 2 out of over 10 definitions mention "awe" and "reverence", but I think that completely goes against the rest of the definitions and makes no sense.
Does that not then invalidate the source and further, your assertion? Or could it be perhaps that you are wrong?:confused1

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
And I think much of the "fear" that I mention regarding the bible is truly a legitimate fear. You don't respect eternal Hellfire, a violent death, or pain and suffering in general. You fear them.
Exactly! you think


Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Okay, so people who have faith in , don't necessarily know that he's real, they just have a sort of gut feeling? Doesn't that gut feeling sometimes turn out to be wrong though(i.e. that time you go out on your bike and wreck), **doesn't that mean there's no merit in faith?**
How in the world does that comprimise the merit in faith? If we could empirically verify that he was in fact real, where then would there be a need for faith?
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Last edited by CaJuNsOuLjA; 03-08-2007 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:40 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Okay, so you laid out your forgiveness text, here's something I'd like you to find the same love and forgiveness in.

11:3 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: .
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
11:8 And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.
11:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and he LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
It's funny that you cite this verse without having cited or made note of the circumstances upon which this decision was predicated-the pharoahs agreement with to allow the Jews to leave Egypt and then reniging at the last moment, not to mention the fact that the Egyptions had enslaved the Jews with the amount of harseness you would afford a rat. Consider more than just individual words and look for to the entire story and perhaps the meaning behind it.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:47 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
You're right, I think I'm dumb.
Just remember that you said it, I didn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
See the " kills babies" text
Nope, I can't see it so just go ahead n show me. Deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
He may have been Somewhat Just on this particular occasion for maybe sparing 10 people he did not find worthy of death for 'depravity' and 'economic' crimes.
I saw no mention of either depravity or economic crimes within those verses, why don't you go back n check on that one n get back to me with a better choice of words? Or show me where it says such things, in the bible. Deal?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
So now we're attacking wikipedia?
I don't have a bible in my house, except for in the bathroom and most of the pages are torn out-almost time to get a new one(JK!!) No, but seriously there's plenty of sites online for getting bible verses from when I need them and the Bible probably has more "false information" than wiki could ever aspire to have, since it too is written by it's users.
I'm not attacking it but it is no longer considered a valid source of information by the more learned of our society. I showed you the article which was from a valid source. What more do you need? As far as not having a Bible in your house, this is the reason I linked to the books of the Bible at Biblegateway dot com.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:52 PM   #178
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I've been spelling it wrong so to correct without editing every post, I meant "Egyptian"
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:24 PM   #179
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Alice,
All you need to know is that Christianity is a fear based religion and Buddhism is not. Carry On!
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Old 03-08-2007, 02:14 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody
Alice,
All you need to know is that Christianity is a fear based religion and Buddhism is not. Carry On!
FALSE. You get an "F" :icon_bigg

Corrected:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody
Alice,
All you need to know is that Christianity is a faith based religion and Buddhism is not. Carry On!
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