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Old 03-04-2007, 02:41 AM   #101
Ramius
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Too much to respond to starting from the beginning, but I will start by saying that Christianity does not devalue this life by speaking of the next.

A term I like to use for BIBLE is
Brief
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth.

Think of it like school, high schoo is not useless because you go to college next and college is not useless because of the career afterwards.

Christianity teaches that this life, our earthly life, is a learning experience. Its purpose is to teach us to Love , it teaches us Respect and Truimph over Tribulation.

It states clearly that this life is not meant to be a walk in the park, in fact, it is supposed to be difficult, because it is the struggle that builds character and faith. You are supposed to have more than you can carry, that you learn to ask in Faith for help, that He may give it.

In all honesty, I did not truly 'get' or understand religion until I had Children, I mean to say, I did believe, I knew was out there. However, my understanding of the 'why' part was limited until I was able to see the reflections in how I raise my own children.

For example, a popular argument I hear is "If is so great, why do I hurt? Why am I Unhappy, why am I blind or cripple?"

Thats a very good question, and the answer is, Sometimes you just have to feel the bad to appreciate the good. My oldest child is in Kindergarden, and every week she gets a friday folder that she brings home, it has all of the work she has done for the week and it also has a behavior chart. On the days she has been good, she gets a sticker, on the days she has been not so good, she gets a number 1 through 9 each one standing for a different infraction listed at the bottom.

She tries hard, and I never stop loving her for that, however some times I have to withhold good things from her (a trip to the park, getting a movie, etc etc) because her actions were not what I expect from a child of mine. It is not that I do not love her, but for her to reap the full rewards that she has coming to her, she has to meet me in the middle by putting forth her best effort.

Christianity is the same, has a whole pile of rewards waiting for you, he wants to give them to you, however you have to meet him in the middle and show him that you are worthy of receiving them. In the mean time He does not love you any less, but He is unable to give you more until you take care of something that is missing.

On top of that, Christians tend to believe these so called 'preachers' who say if you tithe you will receive unlimited prosperity, and all Christians are rich and all Christians are perfect.. nothing makes me more sick than people like that. They to me, are the ones doing the most harm to the Christian faith. It is said in the Bible that a Christians life will not be pleasant, in fact it will be wrought with turmoils. We are laughed at for our beliefs, we are mocked for our faith and we have suicide bombing terrorists blowing us up and crashing our planes all because we believe in the name Jesus.

It would be easy to say "I'm agnostic, or I'm athiest" or whatever else you can be, it's not easy to be a Christian.

The true meaning of Christianity is Love and Understanding... Forgiveness and Patience. To me those are the four pillars that the Faith is based on. Love for our fellow man, to love each human as if they were a direct blood relative.. Understanding that we do not all think alike, and that there is 'more than 1 way to skin a cat', Forgiveness for those who tresspass against us and Patience to teach them to do better.

If you have any questions/debates feel free to ask away, I'll keep an eye here and hopefully you know by now I do not take anything personal. I believe that Christianity is right and I believe the Bible has all the resources I need to do the talking for me, so I have no need for anger or frusterations.

I can also say this, Though I think Christianity is right... I am extremely impressed with the devotion of Bhuddist monks. The Mental stamina they achieve is simply amazing and I would give great things to have half the devotion to my beliefs that they have to theirs.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:23 AM   #102
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It states clearly that this life is not meant to be a walk in the park, in fact, it is supposed to be difficult, because it is the struggle that builds character and faith. You are supposed to have more than you can carry, that you learn to ask in Faith for help, that He may give it.
Struggle builds faith? How? Perhaps if you believe that 's giving you the power to endure the struggle.

Quote:
For example, a popular argument I hear is "If is so great, why do I hurt? Why am I Unhappy, why am I blind or cripple?"

Thats a very good question, and the answer is, Sometimes you just have to feel the bad to appreciate the good. My oldest child is in Kindergarden, and every week she gets a friday folder that she brings home, it has all of the work she has done for the week and it also has a behavior chart. On the days she has been good, she gets a sticker, on the days she has been not so good, she gets a number 1 through 9 each one standing for a different infraction listed at the bottom.
At what point do you send your daughter to eternal ?

Quote:
It would be easy to say "I'm agnostic, or I'm athiest" or whatever else you can be, it's not easy to be a Christian.
I disagree. I think it's much easier to gather your beliefs from the bible than start with a sort of blank slate and develop your own understandings. Also, I think atheists/agnostics probably have it a lot worse than Christians in America. How many "'s Not Real" bumper stickers do you see? None, because we have to keep a low profile for fear that the bible thumpers will burn us down. j/k, but i do believe that the majority of americans are Christians, or some other religion, putting atheist/agnostics in the minority, and hence, not a very easy place.

Quote:
The true meaning of Christianity is Love and Understanding... Forgiveness and Patience. To me those are the four pillars that the Faith is based on. Love for our fellow man, to love each human as if they were a direct blood relative.. Understanding that we do not all think alike, and that there is 'more than 1 way to skin a cat', Forgiveness for those who tresspass against us and Patience to teach them to do better.
I'm all for love, understanding, forgiveness, and patience, but I've never read much from the bible that gave me a deeper understanding of any of these concepts(care to share?), though I'm not a biblical scholar.

Quote:
If you have any questions/debates feel free to ask away, I'll keep an eye here and hopefully you know by now I do not take anything personal. I believe that Christianity is right and I believe the Bible has all the resources I need to do the talking for me, so I have no need for anger or frusterations.

I can also say this, Though I think Christianity is right... I am extremely impressed with the devotion of Bhuddist monks. The Mental stamina they achieve is simply amazing and I would give great things to have half the devotion to my beliefs that they have to theirs.
I look forward to discussing these things with you, as you're one of the few on here who will venture into this territory. I don't take these things personal either, so don't hold back :P.

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Old 03-04-2007, 06:04 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Struggle builds faith? How? Perhaps if you believe that 's giving you the power to endure the struggle.
You pretty much answered that one. The Belief is that trials are put into your life for a number of reasons, and one of those reasons is to teach you to ask for help, thus building faith. I think it would be fair to say that no one person can do anything they want without some kind of help from someone. The Christian is taught to seek out for help before others.

A good example of this would be the poem Footsteps in the sand

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02

At what point do you send your daughter to eternal ?
The only equivilent I could compare this to, would be if I were to force her from my home never to return.

Once you have been Baptised, and saved in the name of Jesus Christ(Father/Son/Holy Ghost) you are 'born again' and given admittance to heavan and no matter how bad you mess up at that point, you will always be forgiven when you ask for forgiveness. This is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, they say "What if I murder someone?" Yes, there are murderers in Heavan. "What if I rape someone?" Yes, Heavan has rapists, they even have used car salesmen and tax collectors. Sounds like a shady place but the bottom line is this, Jesus is Love and Forgiveness. He loves us enough to Forgive us when we trespass against him.

When my Child was born, it was the equivilent of being Born again, and she would always be forgiven and have a place reserved for her at my table just as you or I would be forgiven and have our chair saved in Heavan.

The ones who are doomed for , are the ones who hear his name, and Turn away. This only applies to those who hear his name, and then turn away, not those who live in ignorance (aboriginies, bush people, etc etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I disagree. I think it's much easier to gather your beliefs from the bible than start with a sort of blank slate and develop your own understandings. Also, I think atheists/agnostics probably have it a lot worse than Christians in America. How many "'s Not Real" bumper stickers do you see? None, because we have to keep a low profile for fear that the bible thumpers will burn us down. j/k, but i do believe that the majority of americans are Christians, or some other religion, putting atheist/agnostics in the minority, and hence, not a very easy place.
Honesty, this is a subjective area, and there is no way for me to prove I'm right anymore than I could prove your wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I'm all for love, understanding, forgiveness, and patience, but I've never read much from the bible that gave me a deeper understanding of any of these concepts(care to share?), though I'm not a biblical scholar.


I look forward to discussing these things with you, as you're one of the few on here who will venture into this territory. I don't take these things personal either, so don't hold back :P.
Passage coming right up, I have just the one in mind..
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Originally Posted by Ramius
Who I am now is not who I was, and who I will be is better than anything I ever could have imagined. I am Filled with the Spirit of Christ and I walk surrounded by a Host Of Angels, who can stand before the Army of ? Amen!

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Old 03-04-2007, 06:25 AM   #104
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The ones who are doomed for , are the ones who hear his name, and Turn away. This only applies to those who hear his name, and then turn away, not those who live in ignorance (aboriginies, bush people, etc etc)
I asked my mom a long time ago how someone could be happy up in Heaven knowing that there loved ones are burning in agony forever. Isn't Heaven supposed to be 100% joy/happiness? What do you think about this? I know for me, personally, I couldn't enjoy heaven knowing that the people I loved are miserable. I could barely enjoy life on earth with these worries on my mind, hence my current beliefs.
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Passage coming right up, I have just the one in mind..
I knew you would have one
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:42 AM   #105
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This is a chapter from the book of Matthew, chapter 18 to be exact, and it takes place during the time of Jesus's ministry. We all know he walked with a group of disciples, and well, imagine for a minute that you are one of these 12 people, walking with someone who says not only that he's from Heavan, but He's the guy that made it. Your going to have some questions for him right? Well.. this chapter is some of the questions they toss back and forth while walking around in between cities. Maybe while cooking a rabbit or taking a pee, I'll let you all picture that one for yourself..
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This reiterates what I stated earlier from the mouth of Jesus himself. Jesus is the way into Heavan, You have to be born again or 'become as children' in Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Also, to go further, there is no rank in heavan, no landlords, no supervisor.. just as he said, the least is as the greatest and the greatest is as the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Pretty self explanitory, loves Children, try not to bother them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into fire.
While it is not meant to be interpreted literally, it is meant to be understood that if you have a problem and you know you have a problem, it would be better to cut that problem from your life, than to allow it to drag you down into a spiral of sin and imbellishment. A more literal term could be your group of friends, if you hang out with thieves and know you hang out with thieves, it would be better to cut yourself from that circle of friends, than to allow yourself to be drug down in association with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible

10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
The sheep are symbolic of Christians, and Jesus is often referred to as the shepherd, and this analogy is used often in the Bible because it is something that could be easily related to at the time. When Jesus came to earth as the Savior, it was not for the 99 people that already believed in him, no, it was for the 1 person that did not. If he was able to save even just 1 person, it was one person who was spared an eternity in and that was a huge victory..
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible

14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Despite what some non-believers will have you believe, Jesus does not _want_ you to burn in , He did however, give you freedom of choice, to which Neither He, nor the Devil has the power to change. It is your choice to choose Him or Reject him. He will send people into your life (such as I) to give you His word, and every opportunity to embrace Him, however, if you choose to not believe in Him, then He is unable to spare you the concenquences of your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
This would be an example of patience, and it's limits. An example of this would be my real brother, who had a drug problem, which did cause him to tresspass against me. I went to him, one on one, and spoke with him of it.. I'm sure you all can imagine how that went. I went back with my mom, again, you can imagine how that went.. This continued until I did consider him a heathan if you will, he was not welcome around me or near me.

Fortunatly, an outside influence came in and seperated him from this habit (so far) and in forgiveness he now has a place at my table once more should he want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible

18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
I see this as a very important statement. A lot of people (goodie goodies) like to point the finger at others, people who smoke, people who smoke weed, people who drink, gamble look at or whatever else you can do that another person might not like.... The Bible says here, _If_ _you_ _think_ _it_ _is_a_sin_then_you_will_be_ judged_as_such_by_your_actions_on_that_subject.

I personally think weed in moderation is fine, and the Bible does not specifically say that weed is not fine, so as long as I adhere by this, I am not in sin.

I do however, think Crack is a sin, again, something not specifically covered in the Bible, but, since I personally feel like a crack habit would come in between me and , I would be committing Sin should I partake of such.

This is how I feel and anyone who doesn't agree with me, is allowed to do so, but in the end, this is the 'covenant' that I have established between and myself so another persons opinion is well... moot.


This is just part of one chapter.. Depending on how you read it, it can come off as harsh, or as a semblance of Love. Sometimes Love is harsh, think about when you invite a stranger into your home, you set some ground rules with them first about what they are allowed to do and not allowed to do. The fact that you let them into your home shows care on your part, however, that care does not give them a free pass to do as they please, they are responsible for their own actions.

The funny thing about the Bible is.. even though the words never change, the feeling you get when you walk away from an excerpt, is always changing. I wish I could explain it but I cannot. It's getting late in my shift and I cannot put the other chapters I wanted to that give better examples of the proof of Love you are looking for, but I'll be back.
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Who I am now is not who I was, and who I will be is better than anything I ever could have imagined. I am Filled with the Spirit of Christ and I walk surrounded by a Host Of Angels, who can stand before the Army of ? Amen!

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Old 03-04-2007, 06:45 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
I asked my mom a long time ago how someone could be happy up in Heaven knowing that there loved ones are burning in agony forever. Isn't Heaven supposed to be 100% joy/happiness? What do you think about this? I know for me, personally, I couldn't enjoy heaven knowing that the people I loved are miserable. I could barely enjoy life on earth with these worries on my mind, hence my current beliefs.

I knew you would have one

Thats a tough one that I do not have an answer for.. Anyone who says they can lay it all down on the line what Heavan is going to be like exactly is either Jesus or a Fool. No one really knows. I do think the same way you do though and the only answer I am able to come up with is "I'll have to see when I get there"

Anyways, I'm out, have fun
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Who I am now is not who I was, and who I will be is better than anything I ever could have imagined. I am Filled with the Spirit of Christ and I walk surrounded by a Host Of Angels, who can stand before the Army of ? Amen!
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Old 03-04-2007, 01:33 PM   #107
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You can't compare the two...... I can personally tell you why but don't feel like explaining on here... I lean more towards agnotisticism... I know people will hate me for this but In my opinion the "bible" was just one of the greatest stories ever written it is one of the greatest "law books" ever written also, having to do with common law and not what we participate in today known as public policy but no one would know that.... The bible has too many contradiction, too many holes, too many flaws... I mean after all how many times was it re-written?!.. How can you say one thing and do another... in one verse it says "love your enemies" then later on it says "slay your enemies" that's just the fastest one I could think of at the moment and Buddhism in my opinion doesn't so much lean towards religion that even most budhists think.. I see it more of a life teaching I believe everyone should take and learn from bisshists because it seems so pure the beliefs... Basically live a happy life and don't cause trouble to any other living thing while you do so.. It's the teachings of Buddhism that I respect over Christianity... I haven't been to church in years I used to go and to tell you the truth it's nothing but hippocrits that say one thing and as soon as they leave church they do the total opposite.. come on now be for real... I respect the bible from a "law book" point of view but nothing more.. sorry but just stating my opinion.... these two can't be compared.. I don't claim to be a good christian nor a righteous man I jus tlive my life and hope not to intrude on others.. I don't push my beliefs on others like most Christians seem to do.. believe what you believe..

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Old 03-04-2007, 11:23 PM   #108
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You can't compare the two...... I can personally tell you why but don't feel like explaining on here... I lean more towards agnotisticism... I know people will hate me for this but In my opinion the "bible" was just one of the greatest stories ever written it is one of the greatest "law books" ever written also, having to do with common law and not what we participate in today known as public policy but no one would know that.... The bible has too many contradiction, too many holes, too many flaws... I mean after all how many times was it re-written?!.. How can you say one thing and do another... in one verse it says "love your enemies" then later on it says "slay your enemies" that's just the fastest one I could think of at the moment and Buddhism in my opinion doesn't so much lean towards religion that even most budhists think.. I see it more of a life teaching I believe everyone should take and learn from bisshists because it seems so pure the beliefs... Basically live a happy life and don't cause trouble to any other living thing while you do so.. It's the teachings of Buddhism that I respect over Christianity... I haven't been to church in years I used to go and to tell you the truth it's nothing but hippocrits that say one thing and as soon as they leave church they do the total opposite.. come on now be for real... I respect the bible from a "law book" point of view but nothing more.. sorry but just stating my opinion.... these two can't be compared.. I don't claim to be a good christian nor a righteous man I jus tlive my life and hope not to intrude on others.. I don't push my beliefs on others like most Christians seem to do.. believe what you believe..

To me it seems more along the lines that you do not comprehend the Bible rather than you do not believe it.

If you care to discuss that with me, then point out the passage that specifically tell you to slay your enemies, then the one that tells you to love your enemies and I would be happy to clarify your misunderstandings.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:09 AM   #109
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Ok, lets say you wanted to change a tire out on your bike so you pick up a book that supposidly tells everything there is to know about bikes, however instead of detailing things out step by step, they tell you of how different people in different situations dealt with certain problems. So you skim around and see a passage that says "And so it came to pass that Joe instructed Tom to take his bike to the local shop where his tire would be mounted for a reasonable price. Tom did this, and it was good." then you say ok thats fine... but a few chapters later you see "And Joe had given Frank the tools he needed, and instructed him with the methods of removing his tire, and told him that it is pleasing to do the work yourself, and Frank did this, and it was good"

So now you want to throw the whole book in the trash can because "It's all a bunch of conflicting dump". However, if you had taken the time to back up, read a little more, you would have seen that Tom was given his set of instructions, because he was mechanically inept and in attempting the repair, he would have done more harm than good. Frank on the other hand, was extremely gifted in mechanics, so his instructions were different.

For the person who reads that book and comprehends, they are able to discern if they are a Frank or a Tom and act accordingly.

The Bible works in the same way, before you go quoting two verses that literally say two different things, take a minute to consider the context of the whole rather than the part, and you will find that The Bible makes a little more sense.
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Who I am now is not who I was, and who I will be is better than anything I ever could have imagined. I am Filled with the Spirit of Christ and I walk surrounded by a Host Of Angels, who can stand before the Army of ? Amen!
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Old 03-05-2007, 11:47 AM   #110
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Ok, lets say you wanted to change a tire out on your bike so you pick up a book that supposidly tells everything there is to know about bikes, however instead of detailing things out step by step, they tell you of how different people in different situations dealt with certain problems. So you skim around and see a passage that says "And so it came to pass that Joe instructed Tom to take his bike to the local shop where his tire would be mounted for a reasonable price. Tom did this, and it was good." then you say ok thats fine... but a few chapters later you see "And Joe had given Frank the tools he needed, and instructed him with the methods of removing his tire, and told him that it is pleasing to do the work yourself, and Frank did this, and it was good"

So now you want to throw the whole book in the trash can because "It's all a bunch of conflicting dump". However, if you had taken the time to back up, read a little more, you would have seen that Tom was given his set of instructions, because he was mechanically inept and in attempting the repair, he would have done more harm than good. Frank on the other hand, was extremely gifted in mechanics, so his instructions were different.

For the person who reads that book and comprehends, they are able to discern if they are a Frank or a Tom and act accordingly.

The Bible works in the same way, before you go quoting two verses that literally say two different things, take a minute to consider the context of the whole rather than the part, and you will find that The Bible makes a little more sense.
Good show! Loving every minute of it, and learnin' a lil at the same time...

Great analogies
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:09 PM   #111
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Ok, lets say you wanted to change a tire out on your bike so you pick up a book that supposidly tells everything there is to know about bikes, however instead of detailing things out step by step, they tell you of how different people in different situations dealt with certain problems. So you skim around and see a passage that says "And so it came to pass that Joe instructed Tom to take his bike to the local shop where his tire would be mounted for a reasonable price. Tom did this, and it was good." then you say ok thats fine... but a few chapters later you see "And Joe had given Frank the tools he needed, and instructed him with the methods of removing his tire, and told him that it is pleasing to do the work yourself, and Frank did this, and it was good"

So now you want to throw the whole book in the trash can because "It's all a bunch of conflicting dump". However, if you had taken the time to back up, read a little more, you would have seen that Tom was given his set of instructions, because he was mechanically inept and in attempting the repair, he would have done more harm than good. Frank on the other hand, was extremely gifted in mechanics, so his instructions were different.

For the person who reads that book and comprehends, they are able to discern if they are a Frank or a Tom and act accordingly.

The Bible works in the same way, before you go quoting two verses that literally say two different things, take a minute to consider the context of the whole rather than the part, and you will find that The Bible makes a little more sense.
So you're saying that the bible's saying the same basic messages throughout all of it's text, you just have to read it in the correct context?

Another thing I'd like to take issue with is the idea of an "angry ". I don't think anger/fear/hate are useful emotions, and are fundamentally wrong. I don't think a 'perfect being' would feel these emotions, but these are just my feelings. Maybe these emotions are necessary, but I just always envisioned existence and everything about it being fundamentally good due to the mere fact of it's...existence(call it optimism-the furthest i'll let myself go towards superstition), and hence when you say that kills people, does other violent things, and is altogether vague and mysterious in how he gives his messages to people(a little o/t), it makes me wonder. What do you think could explain these behaviors? What's the traditional christian perspective on 's anger?

Another thing I wanted to ask you, David, is are you a young earth creatonist? That is, do you believe or think the earth is only thousands of years old? Just curious.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:16 PM   #112
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Good show! Loving every minute of it, and learnin' a lil at the same time...

Great analogies
though i do it at times smoking is something that is against bible law any thing that you do that knowingly causes harm to your body is against bible law. the body (soul) and llife is given to you by . the last thing you should do is harm it in anyway. or even defile it (tattoos)

weed kills the brains cell thus harming the body thus is a sin. not to mention the bible says to obey the laws of the land and since it's illegal its there for a sin in that aspect too.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:21 PM   #113
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though i do it at times smoking is something that is against bible law any thing that you do that knowingly causes harm to your body is against bible law. the body (soul) and llife is given to you by . the last thing you should do is harm it in anyway. or even defile it (tattoos)

weed kills the brains cell thus harming the body thus is a sin. not to mention the bible says to obey the laws of the land and since it's illegal its there for a sin in that aspect too.
show me a current scientific article that shows marijuana kills brain cells.
here's a link from the first google result for "marijuana kills brain cells"
http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/marijuan...gy.html#myth12

"Government experts now admit that pot doesn't kill brain cells.(8) This myth came from a handful of animal experiments in which structural changes (not actual cell death, as is often alleged) were observed in brain cells of animals exposed to high doses of pot. Many critics still cite the notorious monkey studies of Dr. Robert G. Heath, which purported to find brain damage in three monkeys that had been heavily dosed with cannabis.(9) This work was never replicated and has since been discredited by a pair of better controlled, much larger monkey studies, one by Dr. William Slikker of the National Center for Toxicological Research(10) and the other by Charles Rebert and Gordon Pryor of SRI International.(11) Neither found any evidence of physical alteration in the brains of monkeys exposed to daily doses of pot for up to a year. Human studies of heavy users in Jamaica and Costa Rica found no evidence of abnormalities in brain physiology.(12) Even though there is no evidence that pot causes permanent brain damage, users should be aware that persistent deficits in short-term memory have been noted in chronic, heavy marijuana smokers after 6 to 12 weeks of abstinence.(13) It is worth noting that other drugs, including alcohol, are known to cause brain damage."

where does the bible say you have to obey unjust laws? if it says that, i'm sorry, but that's crazy to me. that's the same as saying slaves should've stayed on the farm and pleasantly worked their lives away because it was the law.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:26 PM   #114
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this is just from about.com

Q. How is Marijuana Harmful?

From National Institute on Drug Abuse
A. Marijuana can be harmful in a number of ways, through both immediate effects and damage to health over time.

Marijuana hinders the user's short-term memory (memory for recent events), and he or she may have trouble handling complex tasks. With the use of more potent varieties of marijuana, even simple tasks can be difficult.

Because of the drug's effects on perceptions and reaction time, users could be involved in auto crashes. Drug users also may become involved in risky sexual behavior. There is a strong link between drug use and unsafe and the spread of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

Under the influence of marijuana, students may find it hard to study and learn. Young athletes could find their performance is off; timing, movements, and coordination are all affected by THC.


i don't care to go in depth with this. as in drinking heavily marijuana takes you out of your mind state which i never care to let happen to me. and tha'ts beside the fact it's a sin to be out of your mind state basically because you open your self up to a whole lot of trouble by being in a altered mind state.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:32 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by paniro187
this is just from about.com

Q. How is Marijuana Harmful?

From National Institute on Drug Abuse
A. Marijuana can be harmful in a number of ways, through both immediate effects and damage to health over time.

Marijuana hinders the user's short-term memory (memory for recent events), and he or she may have trouble handling complex tasks. With the use of more potent varieties of marijuana, even simple tasks can be difficult.

Because of the drug's effects on perceptions and reaction time, users could be involved in auto crashes. Drug users also may become involved in risky sexual behavior. There is a strong link between drug use and unsafe and the spread of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

Under the influence of marijuana, students may find it hard to study and learn. Young athletes could find their performance is off; timing, movements, and coordination are all affected by THC.


i don't care to go in depth with this. as in drinking heavily marijuana takes you out of your mind state which i never care to let happen to me. and tha'ts beside the fact it's a sin to be out of your mind state basically because you open your self up to a whole lot of trouble by being in a altered mind state.
None of that mentions brain damage of any sort. It mentions short term effects that are to be expected with any intoxicant. The article that I cited also mentioned there are noticeable effects on users; "persistent deficits in short-term memory have been noted in chronic, heavy marijuana smokers after 6 to 12 weeks of abstinence.", but notice it says 6-12 weeks, not permanent. Alcohol is said to actually cause brain damage though(cited in article excerpt posted above).
I think it's important that you understand the true effects of marijuana on the brain if you want to say things like "weed kills the brains cells" and base your beliefs on these things, when they are not true.
As for your arguement of whether it's right to be out of your mind, maybe it's not good all the time, but I think in moderation some drug use is acceptable to a degree. I think it's very easy to get pulled into a mindless addiction, and I know I have before, but I'm trying to change that and use drugs instead of abuse them, though I'm not of the strongest willpower, but I still think marijuana's health effects are negligible, due to my current understanding based on scientific articles that I've read.

Here's another article that's pretty interesting as far as cannabis' effects on the body goes.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...L&type=science

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Old 03-05-2007, 12:48 PM   #116
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and for a little more on-topic discussion, here's a link i found fascinating
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/ar...age_jesus.html

It's about a documentary on Jesus. Here's a few excerpts

"Ancient references show that much of eastern philosophy is harmonious with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The documentary presents a theory that the records of a young Jesus was known and survived. India knew him as St. Essa."

"According to the written legend of St. Essa, at thirteen years old…he was to take a wife; which was their custom at the time. The prospect of such an idea for the young lad must have frightened him. Instead, he ran away to see the world. The young Essa went off to find answers to life, the universe and everything. Where did he go? Essa traveled by sea and land until he arrived at the Indus Valley at age 14. He studied the Vedas and the Upanishads with the Brahman priests. He spent 6 years in Northern India studying the scriptures. He then moved North to the Himalayas, the land of those who follow Buddha. Essa left India in his 26th year. Later, he journeyed to Athens, Greece and Alexandria, Egypt. Essa learned secret knowledge at the great Library. His final teachings apparently took place inside the Great Pyramid. At twenty-nine years of age, he 'returned to Palestine to fulfill his destiny"

"'he strongly denounced the doctrine that gives to man the power of robbing their fellow men of their human rights. In truth…there is no difference in the Children of '" hmm...

also "The Brahman priests and warriors heard of this huge sermon given by St. Essa. Governor Pilot thought St. Essa was exciting the people against the authorities. They thought he was proclaiming himself to be the new King of Israel. It was decided that the great man of peace, St. Essa, would be killed. He was warned and left by night. Later, he was arrested, imprisoned, tortured and brought to trial. Judges told Pilot that they would not condemn an innocent man and acquit robbers. Nevertheless, soldiers seized Essa and two robbers. They were ordered to be nailed to crosses. Essa became an enemy to the Brahman priests exactly as Jesus became an enemy to the highest Church officials; the Sanhedrin who decided Christ must be killed."

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Old 03-05-2007, 12:59 PM   #117
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being in a altered state of mind makes you under it's control and in esscence a slave to it and you are to be a slave to nothing or anyone but .
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:02 PM   #118
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being in a altered state of mind makes you under it's control and in esscence a slave to it and you are to be a slave to nothing or anyone but .
How do you feel about anti-psychotics, SSRIs, sedatives, morphine, and other pharmeceuticals?
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:35 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by paniro187
though i do it at times smoking is something that is against bible law any thing that you do that knowingly causes harm to your body is against bible law. the body (soul) and llife is given to you by . the last thing you should do is harm it in anyway. or even defile it (tattoos)

weed kills the brains cell thus harming the body thus is a sin. not to mention the bible says to obey the laws of the land and since it's illegal its there for a sin in that aspect too.
Great gobs of goose-t Batman!



Alice, check out this book:
150px Siddhartha Novel

it's a work of fiction -- so no real Buddhist teachings here, but it's a great story about enlightenment. I took lots of philosophy classes when I was in school and thought about a philo. minor, and this was one of my favorite books.

here's a link to a free download:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2500
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:39 PM   #120
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Great gobs of goose-t Batman!



Alice, check out this book:
150px Siddhartha Novel

it's a work of fiction -- so no real Buddhist teachings here, but it's a great story about enlightenment. I took lots of philosophy classes when I was in school and thought about a philo. minor, and this was one of my favorite books.

here's a link to a free download:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2500
when i say i do it at times. I mean smoke cigs. 1 a week is avg for me. not 1 pack but 1 cig.
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