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Old 04-04-2007, 01:36 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
isn't there also logic behind the criticism that perhaps , heaven, the bible(parts, at least) were made up also? to explain some sort of human phenomenon/tendency/spiritual searching, whatever you want to call it, that arises in many men and can be seen through many religions and philosophical ponderings?
people have been trying to explain life/death/the unknown for a long time, long before christianity, and long after it. it seems what makes the difference between belonging to 1 religion or another is geographic location and the past politics of the pious.
Of course that is not possible and you are crazy for bringing up such rediculous questions. :laughing6
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Old 04-04-2007, 01:40 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody
You stated it. Thou shall not kill. Is that not one of 's laws? Yet kills at will?
Why do you say that kills at his own will??
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:34 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by CrystalBystal
Why do you say that kills at his own will??
?
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Originally Posted by Cherub
"supposed word of " but what I was stating was the warning given to the Egyptians and Israelites (blood of a lamb over the entrance) and to those in sodom/ghamora (lot looking for the 10 righteous). My point being Is really mean or harsh just for disciplining those that CHOOSE to disobey after knowing the consequences.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:57 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody
You stated it. Thou shall not kill. Is that not one of 's laws? Yet kills at will?
That law was given to his people.......the law didnt say shall not kill LOL:laughing6

Last edited by Cherub; 04-04-2007 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:59 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalBystal
Why do you say that kills at his own will??
Cause hes thowing out what if. Which is cool, cause no one really know
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:00 PM   #286
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I read this theory of a scientist, who was explaining why we believe in , Heaven, , afterlife, etc. His theory goes that since the Human brain is incappable of contemplating it's own expiration, meaning that we can't compute the idea of our brain not working when we die, we have come up with these fictional characters and lands to pacify it.

Although it seems logical, it's normally up to the individual to know that there's more to it than that, and sometimes does things to that individuals life at HIS own WILL to remind him/her of whose boss!
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:21 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
isn't there also logic behind the criticism that perhaps , heaven, the bible(parts, at least) were made up also? to explain some sort of human phenomenon/tendency/spiritual searching, whatever you want to call it, that arises in many men and can be seen through many religions and philosophical ponderings?
people have been trying to explain life/death/the unknown for a long time, long before christianity, and long after it. it seems what makes the difference between belonging to 1 religion or another is geographic location and the past politics of the pious.

I would say faith. OOOOH theres that word again. but yes my own personal faith that the bible hold truth. That the 40 plus or minus people for different eras and cities didnt just by chance find the same texts and say hey let me add to thier story, and somehow have a harmonic theme.

But i do agree geographical location does play a part in Religious diversity.
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:54 PM   #288
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I am going to bow out of this one now. It as become to biased and way off topic.
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:56 PM   #289
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^^^^^ Yes it has!!! A looo0o0oo0o0o0o time ago!
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Old 04-04-2007, 04:24 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalBystal
^^^^^ Yes it has!!! A looo0o0oo0o0o0o time ago!
+!
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:18 AM   #291
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Well, lets see whether I can inject a little fresh insight here. Maybe not, who knows?

First a note to respond to those who have suggested that whatever truth you believe, if it brings you closer to , is in fact good and a reasonable belief. Truth is simply this; a set of facts that represent actual reality. Whatever we believe, or whatever we understand it to be, there simply can't be a diverse set of "truths", no more than there is a diverse set of reality. Let us all strive to discover what is the one truth, not be content to believe anything half-heartedly. To accept any less makes it pointless to bother to believe anything because you accept that it doesn't matter what or whether we believe it. Christianity, being one option vying for our attention, claims that it alone is true. Yes, tollerance of those with whom we disagree is a virtue to any religion worth considering - though it is often the first part of any religion discarded when it comes time to use that religion for some personal or political gain.

On with the show...

If there is no out there, then nothing will come of any of this. If there is one, then he must be available for us to communicate with or at least able to effect our lives or his existence doesn't matter to us and is hardly worth considering. So, if we suggest, not even yet believeing, that he exists and is available to talk to, why not ask him who he is? Let that be part of your meditation on the subject. Something like, " I wish to know all things about life and religion that I can comprehend. , if you exist, let me come to understand that you do and come to know who you are. " It isn't much different from entering a dark room and saying, "Is anybody there?" You are not a fool for asking someone to respond if it turns out they weren't there. You were simply trying the most obvious way to determine whether they were.

Alice, your earlier comment that considering results in PTSD is revealing. Of course, I also find it saddening, for, in my eyes, you fear someone who wants most for you to understand their love for you and why you shouldn't fear him. Consider that 's identity is not determined by whom we say he is. He does not exist because we believe in him, and he isn't angry, loving, or anything else because you or I were taught to believe so. Neither will he come into existance because we want him to or think he does. I and many others would encourage you to attempt to understand who he claims to be, and would assure you that you need not fear him.

It would be normal for a child who had been told their father is a horrible person to fear their own father. Is it not possible that they have been misled? Most likely this would happen because the one spreading the lies wants to gain your trust and allegiance, don't you think? Your fear is real, unfortunately, but it is not based on ideas that are true, just, or appropriate for anyone to have taught you. Consider this... If you are rightly afraid of , and he really is that scary, hadn't you better know everything you can about what he is up to? If he is really there, then endeavor to know your enemy, or you will only be searching for a "truth" that isn't there - if he exists. Deciding to discover life's truth's without understand , no matter how horrible you think that is, is surely futile if exists. You have decided he doesn't, yet you fear him. Only by understanding who he is, or confirming (not assuming) that he isn't, will resolve this conflict. You must 1)fear him because he is terrible, 2)not fear him because he is not terrible, or 3)be certain he IS not (doesn't exist). Contemplating the world and ignoring what he claims to be can't lead to any of these resolutions. My point is simply this; the question of whether there is a must be answered without letting anyone's fear of what they will find determine the answer. Being human, this mistake is very VERY often made on both sides.

I'll have to add one more comment to my intro here. In the early posts you mentioned enough about priests and such to indicate (not confirm) that you come from a Catholic background. Is this true? As Martin Luther did so many years ago, I find that the Catholic faith's has many problems. Chief among his concerns was that they had become too reliant on their ceremonies and traditions and hadn't followed a path that simply endeavoring to understanding the words of in the Bible naturally lead to. Use of "negative marketing", as someone here called it earlier, is also prevolent and disconcerting, as it has been in various religions at various times. Historically, it is easy to understand how the Catholic church and others developed a tradition of church leaders telling others about rather than suggesting the people research on their own. A hundred or two hundred years ago there simply weren't other options, unless you were a scholar like Martin Luther, who found quite a different scenario to be true. The Catholic church's continued habit of letting priests and popes tell people what to think is a main reason I could not continue to pursue Christianity within the Catholic faith. I have since searched for and found churches that encourage study of the bible, socratic discussions of its meaning, coupled with historical context and so many other things that are a reasonable part of research into any field.

a postscript to that, I have also found protestant churches who do all that I found within the Catholic church; only not as consisently. Look for a church that doesn't desire your allegiance to them, or their leaders, saints, or any other human. is very clear that he wants us to deal directly with him, and a church that follows that will only lead you to him, not to their own ideas, but to your own discovery of what is true.

I would also like to mention, by way of introducing myself, why I think that following Buddhism has a limitted potential to achieve one's goal of understanding all that is. If you don't mind, I'll use a motorcycle analogy, because this seems the right place for it. If we were to know nothing of a broken motorcycle that sat before us, nothing of how it worked, nothing of what it was for, nothing of how it came to be, how should we discover it? By taking it apart piece by piece, would we, without already knowing such things, be able to figure out, by simply applying our own knowledge, discover the knowledge held by those who created it? If you didn't know that fuel was missing, and what the potential of fuel was, would you be able to understand the rest of the machine? So I believe it is with contemplative religions. From our perspective within a broken world full of people who want to do right, but rarely quite manage to entirely do so, what we can see with our own minds will not tell us the whole of what is (much? most? ...perhaps, but not all). I believe that reality involves things that are not in this physical world to be seen. To understand these things by contemplating the world can never lead us to the exact right conclusion. It is only effective, and far easier, fortunately, to pick up the manual, written by the one who created the machine, and discover what the goal of the players was meant to be. Other paths can lead to beliefs with vague similarities (i.e. most belief systems are able to discern that there is a soul, many that there is a , etc.). Asking that often to tell you who he is, being open to discovering the answer, and being dilligent to research the possibilities, is the path that I would highly recommend. If you do so earnestly, whole-heartedly, and find that there is no , then at least you will not live with fear of him. In the meantime, I believe that you will find a waiting and willing to earn your trust, so I will pray that you find him.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:07 AM   #292
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wow, this is a lot of respond to. bravo on a well put together post. i just woke up, but i'll get around to responding it once the haze settles and i'm in the mood.
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:22 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haygood

If there is no out there, then nothing will come of any of this. If there is one, then he must be available for us to communicate with or at least able to effect our lives or his existence doesn't matter to us and is hardly worth considering. So, if we suggest, not even yet believeing, that he exists and is available to talk to, why not ask him who he is? Let that be part of your meditation on the subject. Something like, " I wish to know all things about life and religion that I can comprehend. , if you exist, let me come to understand that you do and come to know who you are. " It isn't much different from entering a dark room and saying, "Is anybody there?" You are not a fool for asking someone to respond if it turns out they weren't there. You were simply trying the most obvious way to determine whether they were.
I agree that Truth isn't relative.
What do you mean that nothing will come of "this" if there is no ?
Have you read Conversations with ?
Quote:
Alice, your earlier comment that considering results in PTSD is revealing. Of course, I also find it saddening, for, in my eyes, you fear someone who wants most for you to understand their love for you and why you shouldn't fear him. Consider that 's identity is not determined by whom we say he is. He does not exist because we believe in him, and he isn't angry, loving, or anything else because you or I were taught to believe so. Neither will he come into existance because we want him to or think he does. I and many others would encourage you to attempt to understand who he claims to be, and would assure you that you need not fear him.
Are we talking about Yahweh, in reference to the loving ? I think there's very good reason to fear Him, but if you're talking about a in general, then I agree that there's nothing to fear. How do you attempt to understand ? Understand reality? Are we talking about the xian ?
Quote:
It would be normal for a child who had been told their father is a horrible person to fear their own father. Is it not possible that they have been misled?
I don't think many churches tell the members that is 'horrible'. The Bible itself leaves me with that impression.
Quote:
Most likely this would happen because the one spreading the lies wants to gain your trust and allegiance, don't you think? Your fear is real, unfortunately, but it is not based on ideas that are true, just, or appropriate for anyone to have taught you. Consider this... If you are rightly afraid of , and he really is that scary, hadn't you better know everything you can about what he is up to?
How can you say my fear isn't based on true ideas?
If I'm Rightly afraid, yes, I should should try to understand it. But seeing as I don't believe it I don't see what the point is in obsessing over it(I've put in my time already).
Quote:
If he is really there, then endeavor to know your enemy, or you will only be searching for a "truth" that isn't there - if he exists. Deciding to discover life's truth's without understand , no matter how horrible you think that is, is surely futile if exists. You have decided he doesn't, yet you fear him.
I don't fear things that don't exist. I fear things that I don't understand. I still get bothered by the idea of from time to time(a very hard idea to understand, for me at least), but that doesn't mean it's real( i also fear ghosts and aliens).
Quote:
Only by understanding who he is, or confirming (not assuming) that he isn't, will resolve this conflict. You must 1)fear him because he is terrible, 2)not fear him because he is not terrible, or 3)be certain he IS not (doesn't exist). Contemplating the world and ignoring what he claims to be can't lead to any of these resolutions. My point is simply this; the question of whether there is a must be answered without letting anyone's fear of what they will find determine the answer. Being human, this mistake is very VERY often made on both sides.
How do you confirm if exists? I gave Him plenty of chances to make me a believer, I opened my heart to Him for a long time and all that filled the void was fear and confusion. If I told you that there's a that's going to torture you forever if you don't believe in him and then went on to tell you a bunch of crazy stories about him, how much thought would you put into confirming the existence of this ? Especially considering that most of it is unconfirmable. I don't let my fear determine the answer. I let reason determine the answer, and it's reasonable to me to fear if you give the beliefs of Christianity any weight.
Quote:
I'll have to add one more comment to my intro here. In the early posts you mentioned enough about priests and such to indicate (not confirm) that you come from a Catholic background. Is this true? As Martin Luther did so many years ago, I find that the Catholic faith's has many problems. Chief among his concerns was that they had become too reliant on their ceremonies and traditions and hadn't followed a path that simply endeavoring to understanding the words of in the Bible naturally lead to. Use of "negative marketing", as someone here called it earlier, is also prevolent and disconcerting, as it has been in various religions at various times. Historically, it is easy to understand how the Catholic church and others developed a tradition of church leaders telling others about rather than suggesting the people research on their own.
Nope, not Catholic. I guess they're just an easy target. What is the "path" that the bible "naturally leads to"? For me it was disbelief and abhorrence based on the "nature" of my reasoning.
Quote:
A hundred or two hundred years ago there simply weren't other options, unless you were a scholar like Martin Luther, who found quite a different scenario to be true. The Catholic church's continued habit of letting priests and popes tell people what to think is a main reason I could not continue to pursue Christianity within the Catholic faith. I have since searched for and found churches that encourage study of the bible, socratic discussions of its meaning, coupled with historical context and so many other things that are a reasonable part of research into any field.
socratic discussions about the bible? wow. do they encourage skepticism(a natural part of any dicussion)? Is that allowed by ? I'm still under the impression that you must believe in 100% in order to get into happyland.
Quote:
I would also like to mention, by way of introducing myself, why I think that following Buddhism has a limitted potential to achieve one's goal of understanding all that is. If you don't mind, I'll use a motorcycle analogy, because this seems the right place for it. If we were to know nothing of a broken motorcycle that sat before us, nothing of how it worked, nothing of what it was for, nothing of how it came to be, how should we discover it? By taking it apart piece by piece, would we, without already knowing such things, be able to figure out, by simply applying our own knowledge, discover the knowledge held by those who created it? If you didn't know that fuel was missing, and what the potential of fuel was, would you be able to understand the rest of the machine?
We know nothing of this world when we're born, but we learn. You use reason. Of course we're not going to be able to understand everything, but I don't see the Bible as very informative either.
Quote:
So I believe it is with contemplative religions. From our perspective within a broken world full of people who want to do right, but rarely quite manage to entirely do so, what we can see with our own minds will not tell us the whole of what is (much? most? ...perhaps, but not all). I believe that reality involves things that are not in this physical world to be seen. To understand these things by contemplating the world can never lead us to the exact right conclusion. It is only effective, and far easier, fortunately, to pick up the manual, written by the one who created the machine, and discover what the goal of the players was meant to be.
I think life/the world is the best thing to base reality on, either abstract or physical. If you think the Bible's the manual for this life, then I envy the contentment you must feel, having many of life's burdens taken care of for you.
I think Buddhism's general principle of seeing true reality and understanding the world we live in is probably the best general basis for a philosophy. Of course many philosophies/religions can Say they do this, but with Theism I don't think it's true. Theism discourages real, genuine thought by having all the 'answers'.
Quote:
Other paths can lead to beliefs with vague similarities (i.e. most belief systems are able to discern that there is a soul, many that there is a , etc.). Asking that often to tell you who he is, being open to discovering the answer, and being dilligent to research the possibilities, is the path that I would highly recommend. If you do so earnestly, whole-heartedly, and find that there is no , then at least you will not live with fear of him. In the meantime, I believe that you will find a waiting and willing to earn your trust, so I will pray that you find him.
My search for Xian is done, I think. I don't fear him anymore. I don't even fear death like I used to.
I've asked , been open, and researched, and continue all of these things, just not with Christianity, but in a more general, spiritual sense.
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