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Old 10-04-2012, 02:57 PM   #61
Volfy
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Oh no, I much prefer hardtop. My riding buddies with them big fat cruiser tires went wherever they darn well felt like it, and I had to follow on my skinny- sportbike-size tires. Besides, that Frio Canyon Motorcycle shop's "parking lot" is a giant gravel pit. Enough pucker moments to last me till the next 3-sisters ride.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:10 PM   #62
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HAHAHA, I was really hoping I could egg you on enough for you to try it

All BS aside, ABS can be very helpful off-road. Especially in steep descents, just ride the rear brake and engine braking down. It does suck for wheelies though, reach for rear brake on one wheel and ABS says NO!
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:30 PM   #63
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There seems to be more pros than cons to me. I wish I could upgrade to ABS on my FZ. It would be nice to have on longer trips when you are on unfamiliar roads and may happen to have an encounter of some sort.

As far as the extra 20 to 25 lbs I don't see that as being a problem. Everyone seems so crazy about "unsprung weight" and all that. Of course if you race not having that extra weight would result in a couple of hundreds of a second shaved off your lap times. Don't see it as a problem at all for street riding.

I think it would be a good thing if it was required on motorcycles. I bet the accident rates would go down and so would insurance. Unless of course people start pulling the fuses.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:39 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr F. View Post
HAHAHA, I was really hoping I could egg you on enough for you to try it
I'll take you up on that when I get a dual-purpose... one of these days.

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So you think the ABS just stopped applying any braking at all? That's all on the rider, not the ABS or the bike
My understanding is that ABS works the best when the sensor sees distinctly alternating lock-up and free rotation signal streams. Bumpy, rocky, dirt and gravel surfaces, especially on a downhill grade disrupt/distort the rising and falling edges in the angular velocity that the algorithms uses to modulate brake pressure. In instrumentation & system control terms, these are pertubations (i.e. signals un-characteristic of the process under control) that nevertheless influence the PV (process variable), such that the controller brain finds it difficult to modulate the CO (control output) properly, in order to maintain control stability.

Adverse effect under upset conditions obviously depends on robustness of the controller and the severity of the pertubation, but I wouldn't rule out an unstable "runaway" as a result, however unlikely.

How's that for some techno babble?
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:46 PM   #65
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How's that for some techno babble?
If you wrote that
If you copied and pasted: well, meh.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:52 PM   #66
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What did he say?
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:06 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spartandude View Post
If you wrote that
If you copied and pasted: well, meh.
Considering I did 17yrs - so far - hard time in the industry messing with this sort of stuff... you should see some of the other chit I've written. Some of them will make the Pope binary bits.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenW View Post
What did he say?
Bumpy ground confuses the computer.

If that's too complex then: ABS no worky with dirt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
Considering I did 17yrs - so far - hard time in the industry messing with this sort of stuff... you should see some of the other chit I've written. Some of them will make the Pope binary bits.
I didn't pay attention to my controls course and just squeaked by. Kicking myself now, but I did follow what you were saying.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #69
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Read this one if you have problem falling asleep: http://www.google.com/patents?id=YDC...page&q&f=false

Last edited by Volfy; 10-04-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
I'll take you up on that when I get a dual-purpose... one of these days.



My understanding is that ABS works the best when the sensor sees distinctly alternating lock-up and free rotation signal streams. Bumpy, rocky, dirt and gravel surfaces, especially on a downhill grade disrupt/distort the rising and falling edges in the angular velocity that the algorithms uses to modulate brake pressure. In instrumentation & system control terms, these are pertubations (i.e. signals un-characteristic of the process under control) that nevertheless influence the PV (process variable), such that the controller brain finds it difficult to modulate the CO (control output) properly, in order to maintain control stability.

Adverse effect under upset conditions obviously depends on robustness of the controller and the severity of the pertubation, but I wouldn't rule out an unstable "runaway" as a result, however unlikely.

How's that for some techno babble?
On the CBR there's a speed ring sensor on each wheel that the ABS computer uses to compare one wheel's speed to the other. It doesn't give a about bouncing tires. If the BMW is similar, then rider error
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #71
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On the CBR there's a speed ring sensor on each wheel that the ABS computer uses to compare one wheel's speed to the other. It doesn't give a about bouncing tires. If the BMW is similar, then rider error
Yup, BMW uses rings.

2012 10 02 19 37 53 95 zps846cfd61
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:43 PM   #72
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Bouncing tires = no/reduced contact with terra firma (or terra softa) = delayed onset of resumption of wheel rotation = reduced slew rate of rise of angular velocity of wheel when rotation resumes = (ALSO) likely unsteady rate of wheel rotation = (ALSO) increase likelihood of discrepency between front and rear wheel angular velocity = one confused ABS controller.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:43 PM   #73
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I hope that pic I posted isn't showing as HUGE on everyones screen as it is on mine... I resized it but still HUGE.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:52 PM   #74
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Bouncing tires = no/reduced contact with terra firma (or terra softa) = delayed onset of resumption of wheel rotation = reduced slew rate of rise of angular velocity of wheel when rotation resumes = (ALSO) likely unsteady rate of wheel rotation = (ALSO) increase likelihood of discrepency between front and rear wheel angular velocity = one confused ABS controller.
Look, the dumbass on the BMW wasn't even using the rear brake, after falling numerous times from braking he probably just released the front brake. Those tires weren't off the ground long enough to mess with the system. Does BMW have a C-ABS system?
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:53 PM   #75
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Oh yeah, it's huge. BTW, all that ring does is provide a target for the proximity sensor, which is usually a hall sensor that senses the little openings between the little bars. This provides a pulse stream to the ABS controller module, which uses it to calculate the angular velocity of the wheel.

The angular velocity is the primary (Process Variable) the ABS controller uses to feed the control algorithm. So really... the ring is just there to, uh, look pretty.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:56 PM   #76
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If that BMW video bothers you that much, feel free to search on Youtube to your hearts content, or google "ABS on dirt". This thing isn't hearsay. ABS controllers have gotten better over the years, but dirt remains a big challenge.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:56 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
Oh yeah, it's huge. BTW, all that ring does is provide a target for the proximity sensor, which is usually a hall sensor that senses the little openings between the little bars. This provides a pulse stream to the ABS controller module, which uses it to calculate the angular velocity of the wheel.

The angular velocity is the primary (Process Variable) the ABS controller uses to feed the control algorithm. So really... the ring is just there to, uh, look pretty.
You're gonna have to get on your bike and prove it to me
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:01 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
Read this one if you have problem falling asleep: http://www.google.com/patents?id=YDC...page&q&f=false
2003 and they were still controlling DPP with a dude/dudette watching a gauge and pushing buttons/rotating nobs? Wow. This does bring back nightmares from that controls course.

Back on topic: my next bike will have ABS as all of my crashes have been from locking the front brake.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:11 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
Oh yeah, it's huge. BTW, all that ring does is provide a target for the proximity sensor, which is usually a hall sensor that senses the little openings between the little bars. This provides a pulse stream to the ABS controller module, which uses it to calculate the angular velocity of the wheel.

The angular velocity is the primary (Process Variable) the ABS controller uses to feed the control algorithm. So really... the ring is just there to, uh, look pretty.
The rear ring is the used to determine speed as well as its role in the ABS system. Those gold hubs are for a ktm 690, and I had to get that ring made to recover speedo and abs functionality. Without the rear ring the speedo is at a constant zero, and the abs system will throw a light indefinitely.

Front ring however provides no speed data.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:39 PM   #80
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This technology has been in the aviation industry for years now. It's called Anti-skid. The next time you land on a wet runway know for sure that this system is working. Weight is a HUGE consideration in aircraft design. Apparently they think it's worth toting around the extra weight. It may not always be working, but when you need it you're sure glad you have it. Kind of the way I feel about it on motorcycles and vehicles.
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