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Old 10-02-2012, 09:19 AM   #101
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Then why's it okay for cops to speed? What do I do if I see a cop speeding while not on a call. (This kind of argument will be used in my paper, I don't necessarily agree with it.)
Sec. 545.365. SPEED LIMIT EXCEPTION FOR EMERGENCIES; MUNICIPAL REGULATION.

(a) The regulation of the speed of a vehicle under this subchapter does not apply to:
(1) an authorized emergency vehicle responding to a call;
(2) a police patrol; or
(3) a physician or ambulance responding to an emergency call.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:22 AM   #102
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Then your agency and DPS are violating the most basic rules of firearm safety and recklessly endangering the general public.

Honestly you should know better, but as we all know, cops are some of the worst offenders of firearms safety rules.
You have no understanding of the use of force continuum.

Deadly force is allowable when you're faced with deadly force. In this stuation the folks running shot at police officers and civilians; not a petty traffic violation.

Your true colors on how you feel about law enforcement are showing. Have a safe day.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:29 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse H View Post
You have no understanding of the use of force continuum.

Deadly force is allowable when you're faced with deadly force. In this stuation the folks running shot at police officers and civilians; not a petty traffic violation.
Incorrect - i have quite a good understanding of it.

What I do not have is tolerance for idiots who discharge a firearm without being absolutely certain of their target and what is beyond it. Its a pretty basic rule.

If I do something that stupid and kill an innocent person, I go to jail forever. You do it? Meh - 3 day paid vacation while it is investigated and some extra time off for stress - with pay of course.

If the individual was endangering you and others, why on earth would you escalate the problem by intentionally shooting at a target you have little chance of hitting?

I'm fully aware of when deadly force is allowed. Shooting at a tire is like shooting at a leg - virtually guaranteed to miss and criminally stupid.

Besides, if you're using deadly force in a non-lethal manner, that rather indicates you believed deadly force was not required, doesn't it? Kinda like shooting to scare...not to actually stop.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:33 AM   #104
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:36 AM   #105
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:37 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Jesse H View Post
You have no understanding of the use of force continuum.

Deadly force is allowable when you're faced with deadly force. In this stuation the folks running shot at police officers and civilians; not a petty traffic violation.

Your true colors on how you feel about law enforcement are showing. Have a safe day.
hh...what was it, 9 civilians injured by cops trying to take down a single guy with a knife...
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:40 AM   #107
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hh...what was it, 9 civilians injured by cops trying to take down a single guy with a knife...
To be fair, the guy they were shooting at did have a gun. However, he wasn't actively threatening anyone with it when NYPD decided to turn Manhattan into their personal shooting gallery.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #108
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Incorrect - i have quite a good understanding of it.
What type of training and real world experience have you had? Or are you some sort of mall ninja with a CHL who spends alot of time at gun forums and enjoys arm chair quarterbacking others?

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What I do not have is tolerance for idiots who discharge a firearm without being absolutely certain of their target and what is beyond it. Its a pretty basic rule.
I can't agree more. Other than a controlled environment like a shooting range where you're shooting at static paper targets; nothing else in the real world happens with absolute certainty.

Quote:
If I do something that stupid and kill an innocent person, I go to jail forever. You do it? Meh - 3 day paid vacation while it is investigated and some extra time off for stress - with pay of course.
If I do something stupid on duty, I get dinged as well. I'm held to a higher standard than others. Do you walk around with your name on your shirt when you're out in public for others to document? I do.

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If the individual was endangering you and others, why on earth would you escalate the problem by intentionally shooting at a target you have little chance of hitting?
The deputy that shot out the tires did an excellent job. Bad guys were arrested, no more cops or innocents were shot at. In fact, during this pursuit/shooting an involved officer was hit by bad guy gunfire. Looking at the windshield of his patrol car, the badguys were looking to kill him.

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I'm fully aware of when deadly force is allowed. Shooting at a tire is like shooting at a leg - virtually guaranteed to miss and criminally stupid.
Using your analogy, trying to kill the engine block of a 3/4 ton pick-up isn't going to happen with a little .223 round. Thus shooting in the leg, or tire, is the next best thing. When you say "virtually guaranteed to miss" do you really mean to say, it was effective and the bad guys were taken into custody. Because that's what happened.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:45 AM   #109
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Besides, if you're using deadly force in a non-lethal manner, that rather indicates you believed deadly force was not required, doesn't it? Kinda like shooting to scare...not to actually stop.
No, idiot. Obviously if you shoot the tire the car will stop, after it has flipped a few times, exploded, and caught on fire. How is that not deadly force?
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:50 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jesse H View Post
What type of training and real world experience have you had? Or are you some sort of mall ninja with a CHL who spends alot of time at gun forums and enjoys arm chair quarterbacking others?
Be happy to discuss that with you some other time. This forum is not the place for waving and bragging merely to address a point on which you KNOW i'm right.

mall ninja...heheh oh that's funny....Been reading the Gecko45 thread again?
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I can't agree more. Other than a controlled environment like a shooting range where you're shooting at static paper targets; nothing else in the real world happens with absolute certainty.
No ? Really? Thanks for admitting that.
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If I do something stupid on duty, I get dinged as well.
No offense, but a ding on your record is a bit different than the criminal charges most of us face if we make that kind of stupid mistake.
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I'm held to a higher standard than others.
Based on much of what I've seen in the real world, I have to disagree. You're held to a different standard, but not a higher one. The claim of department policy or officer safety absolves a lot of sins. Granted, your CAREER may suffer, but unless you REALLY up, you stay out of jail and typically keep your job. Doesn't sound like a higher standard to me.
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Do you walk around with your name on your shirt when you're out in public for others to document? I do.
No, I have a job where I don't have to wear a name on my shirt. However, within the context of my employment, you bet your everyone knows what I do and were I to do some of the truly stupid you're advocating here, I'd expect to get fired.
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The deputy that shot out the tires did an excellent job. Bad guys were arrested, no more cops or innocents were shot at. In fact, during this pursuit/shooting an involved officer was hit by bad guy gunfire. Looking at the windshield of his patrol car, the badguys were looking to kill him.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're going to pull a gun on someone, the basic idea is you intend to kill them. Guns are not non-lethal or even less-than-lethal tools. They are tools intended and designed for the use of deadly force.
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Originally Posted by Jesse H View Post
Using your analogy, trying to kill the engine block of a 3/4 ton pick-up isn't going to happen with a little .223 round. Thus shooting in the leg, or tire, is the next best thing.
I'd be VERY interested to see the official departmental policy which teaches you to shoot at small, easy to miss, moving targets with the goal of merely incapacitating - especially with a rifle round.

You might want to stop digging the hole, son...
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Last edited by honorsdaddy; 10-02-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:51 AM   #111
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No, idiot. Obviously if you shoot the tire the car will stop, after it has flipped a few times, exploded, and caught on fire. How is that not deadly force?
Are you being serious? I was under the impression you were smarter than that.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:59 AM   #112
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If it's just some young and dumb innocent kid running
Pro tip: if you're running, you're not innocent...
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:01 AM   #113
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Are you being serious? I was under the impression you were smarter than that.
lol, of course. It was in jest.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:31 AM   #114
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Then your agency and DPS are violating the most basic rules of firearm safety
Does that include pointing weapons at humans?
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:36 AM   #115
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Be happy to discuss that with you some other time. This forum is not the place for waving and bragging merely to address a point on which you KNOW i'm right.
No waving here. Myself and every guy that wears a badge never gets tired of somebody who pays my salary knowing how I should do my job. If you know you're right. Good on ya. Stop telling me that I know you're right. That's asinine.

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mall ninja...heheh oh that's funny....Been reading the Gecko45 thread again?
I'm not really an active enough poster to be familiar with that.

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No offense, but a ding on your record is a bit different than the criminal charges most of us face if we make that kind of stupid mistake.
Excuse me. Ding may not have been the proper word. I say ding amongst my colleagues at work and we know it's more than a slap in the hand. I may get away with speeding but that doesn't mean I'll get away with something more severe. Of course, where we disagree is using a firearm to disable a tire. You think it's a mistake and I think it's a tactic. We'll just have to disagree.

Quote:
Based on much of what I've seen in the real world, I have to disagree. You're held to a different standard, but not a higher one. The claim of department policy or officer safety absolves a lot of sins. Granted, your CAREER may suffer, but unless you REALLY up, you stay out of jail and typically keep your job. Doesn't sound like a higher standard to me.
Again we disagree. I've personally known a few cops that end up in jail. And because of the fact that they were cops and held to a higher standard, their arrests were publicised and to be scorn by all.

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No, I have a job where I don't have to wear a name on my shirt. However, within the context of my employment, you bet your everyone knows what I do and were I to do some of the truly stupid you're advocating here, I'd expect to get fired.
Myself as well.

Quote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're going to pull a gun on someone, the basic idea is you intend to kill them. Guns are not non-lethal or even less-than-lethal tools. They are tools intended and designed for the use of deadly force.
I've lost count of the number of times I've drawn down on duty but my number one thought was not, "this guy is going to die." Intent to kill someone is different than justification for deadly force.

Quote:
I'd be VERY interested to see the official departmental policy which teaches you to shoot at small, easy to miss, moving targets with the goal of merely incapacitating - especially with a rifle round.
I'm not at liberty to discuss the specifics of our general orders, but deadly force is warranted in that situation. Just because deadly force is warranted doesn't mean the result shall be a dead person. The deputy that shot out the tires was from a neighboring agency so I don't know what their policies are. He may have gottan an attaboy or dinged.

If forbid I were put in that situation, I only pray that it all ends well for the good guys and I'm sure some on the internet somewhere will get upset and rant about it on motohouston.com.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:39 AM   #116
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:44 AM   #117
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:45 AM   #118
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Does that include pointing weapons at humans?
Nope - that's appropriate sometimes.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:48 AM   #119
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No waving here. Myself and every guy that wears a badge never gets tired of somebody who pays my salary knowing how I should do my job. If you know you're right. Good on ya. Stop telling me that I know you're right. That's asinine.



I'm not really an active enough poster to be familiar with that.



Excuse me. Ding may not have been the proper word. I say ding amongst my colleagues at work and we know it's more than a slap in the hand. I may get away with speeding but that doesn't mean I'll get away with something more severe. Of course, where we disagree is using a firearm to disable a tire. You think it's a mistake and I think it's a tactic. We'll just have to disagree.



Again we disagree. I've personally known a few cops that end up in jail. And because of the fact that they were cops and held to a higher standard, their arrests were publicised and to be scorn by all.



Myself as well.



I've lost count of the number of times I've drawn down on duty but my number one thought was not, "this guy is going to die." Intent to kill someone is different than justification for deadly force.



I'm not at liberty to discuss the specifics of our general orders, but deadly force is warranted in that situation. Just because deadly force is warranted doesn't mean the result shall be a dead person. The deputy that shot out the tires was from a neighboring agency so I don't know what their policies are. He may have gottan an attaboy or dinged.

If forbid I were put in that situation, I only pray that it all ends well for the good guys and I'm sure some on the internet somewhere will get upset and rant about it on motohouston.com.
bunch of babble bluster and bullshit.

BTW - if you've lost count of how many times you've drawn in the line of duty, you really need to either get some help for the memory loss or anger management. The vast bulk of cops in the US go through an entire career without ever drawing their sidearm. It is a little disconcerting that a local po-po who advocates disregarding the most basic rules of firearm safety also seems to pull his gun at the slightest provocation.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:50 AM   #120
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Nope - that's appropriate sometimes.
Sure, but is it safe? I've taken a few gun safety courses in my time, and the subject of shooting tires never came up. You have a link?
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