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Old 07-20-2012, 09:51 AM   #21
Volfy
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I believe the only On Board Computer on Lucydad's EX500 is... Lucydad's head.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Most bikes currently don't have knock sensors, and only since they've started to get cats do a handful run closed loop.
Now there is close loop control on fuel mixture, which quite a few bikes have nowadays. If your bike has O2 sensor(s) on your exhaust pipe, then the ECU is capable of doing close loop mixture control, which is more for emmissions and proper power production & thottle control once the engine warms up. Mixture close loop control itself alone does not address knock control.

Closed loop control on ignition timing requires a knock sensor, which is still very rare in motorcycles. Only a few higher end bikes have it. It is essentially a microphone (actually accelerometer) that senses engine vibration, which the ECU uses to detect the characteristics of knock. An engine actually makes the most power (most efficient) at just shy of knock, or even with a slight knock. That is the point of max ignition timing advance.

Last edited by Volfy; 07-20-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
Now there is close loop control on fuel mixture, which quite a few bikes have nowadays. If your bike has O2 sensor(s) on your exhaust pipe, then the ECU is capable of doing close loop mixture control, which is more for emmissions and proper power production & thottle control once the engine warms up. Mixture close loop control itself alone does not address knock control.
Lots of bikes over the last few years have oxygen sensors, but their only purpose is to check cat health. Presence of an o2 sensor doesn't guarantee closed loop. The o2 sensor has to be located upstream of the cat.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Lots of bikes over the last few years have oxygen sensors, but their only purpose is to check cat health. Presence of an o2 sensor doesn't guarantee closed loop. The o2 sensor has to be located upstream of the cat.
O2 sensors can be both upstream and downstream of cat. Some automobiles have several banks of O2 sensors. Both my vehicles' V6 engine have four(4) O2 sensors. Each bank of cylinders has its own cat and a pair of O2 sensors - one up stream and onedown stream. I have Autotap OBDII software installed on my laptop, and I can actually read peformance parameters related to each bank.

The way O2 sensors ensure engine health is by monitoring oxygen content in the exhaust, which directly relates to how rich/lean the mixture is. It's more accurately name Lambda sensor, because its output decribes the Lamda curve, which centers around the stochiometric ratio of gasoline (14.7:1), aka ideal fuel:air mixture ratio. The curve drops off sharply when the mixture veer too far away from 14.7:1 on either side (rich/lean). This means that unless the ECU does close loop control based on Lamda output to keep the prevailing mixture very close to 14.7:1, the O2 sensors are not of much use.

With bikes, a lot of us actually disables the Lambda feedback control and leave the O2 sensor in place. My RSVR is a good example. It is running MAP2, which ignores the O2 sensor and runs open loop. An engine actually produces the most power at mixture richer than stochiometric ratio, so disregarding Lambda signal and running a rich fuel map will help make the most power, albeit at the expense of emissions.

Last edited by Volfy; 07-20-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:11 AM   #25
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Volfy,

Lol...my brains computer fried or was obsolete years ago...poor old EX500...I am going riding this afternoon and probably burn 2 gallons or 100 miles of premium. Tomorrow morning I will fill with regular and see if I can see any difference. My observational skills may not pick anything, then again you never know...interesting discussion.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
O2 sensors can be both upstream and downstream of cat. Some automobiles have several banks of O2 sensors. Both my vehicles' V6 engine have four(4) O2 sensors. Each bank of cylinders has its own cat and a pair of O2 sensors - one up stream and onedown stream. I have Autotap OBDII software installed on my laptop, and I can actually read peformance parameters related to each bank.

The way O2 sensors ensure engine health is by monitoring oxygen content in the exhaust, which directly relates to how rich/lean the mixture is. It's more accurately name Lambda sensor, because its output decribes the Lamda curve, which centers around the stochiometric ratio of gasoline (14.7:1), aka ideal fuel:air mixture ratio. The curve drops off sharply when the mixture veer too far away from 14.7:1 on either side (rich/lean). This means that unless the ECU does close loop control based on Lamda output to keep the prevailing mixture very close to 14.7:1, the O2 sensors are not of much use.

With bikes, a lot of us actually disables the Lambda feedback control and leave the O2 sensor in place. My RSVR is a good example. It is running MAP2, which ignores the O2 sensor and runs open loop. An engine actually produces the most power at mixture richer than stochiometric ratio, so disregarding Lambda signal and running a rich fuel map will help make the most power, albeit at the expense of emissions.
I'm fully aware of how these systems work. Lots of bikes have only one o2 sensor, and it's downstream
Of the cat. Only in the last year or two are bikes coming with closed loop systems.

, if closed loop systems were more prevalent, dynojet would have no market for their PC line of controllers.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #27
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/\ that would depend on the bike's computer's abilities to drastically change the fueling. Well... and depend on the mods or the extreme weather you are operating it in.



BTW, my '07 650r has a sticker inside the tail plastic that lists which gas to use... I'm sure many bikes have that (since I'm sure lots of people don't have a manual, or won't bother to dig it out)

Like I said, Just note that a bike might say "91 RON", while the gas pump says "87 (RON+MON)/2".... also known as AKI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I'm fully aware of how these systems work. Lots of bikes have only one o2 sensor, and it's downstream
Of the cat. Only in the last year or two are bikes coming with closed loop systems.

, if closed loop systems were more prevalent, dynojet would have no market for their PC line of controllers.
There is some truth to that. Although vitually all OEM Lambda systems use narrow band O2 sensors, which as I mentioned above, drop off quickly from 14.7:1. They are meant primarily as emissions control devices to keep exhaust as clean as possible and to keep the cat from melting from being flooded with unspent fuel.

PC's O2 sensors are wide-band, which means they are able to be proportional farther away from 14.7:1. That means the fuel mixture setpoints can be sbustantially richer than stochiometric and still provide good closed-loop feedback control. This is, of course, good for maximizing power output.

Problem with operating open loops is that the fuel mapping can be so rich when conditions don't warrant so much fuel. On cold starts my RSVR is so rich, I have to stand far downwind of the exhaust, otherwise my cloths will reek of gasoline for the whole day. Having wide band O2 ssensor(s) means the controller can keep the mixture just rich enough to make good power, but not dump raw fuel out the exhaust. Too rich a mixture actually hurt power too.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucydad View Post
Volfy,

Lol...my brains computer fried or was obsolete years ago...poor old EX500...I am going riding this afternoon and probably burn 2 gallons or 100 miles of premium. Tomorrow morning I will fill with regular and see if I can see any difference. My observational skills may not pick anything, then again you never know...interesting discussion.
LOL... while you're at it, might wanna re-calibrate your manual knock sensors... uh, that'll be your hands, thighs and . Get your engine nice and warm, then short-shift into top gear (sixth?). Keeping speed low - maybe 30mph - whack open the throttle. If you don't feel or hear a low frequency thudding that is distinctively different from the normal engine vibration, then the regular gas is gonna work just fine even in the dead of summer heat.

When I used to mess with H2O-cooled VWs back in the '80s, we would advance the ignition timing on non-knock sensors equipped engines progressively until we feel knocking at high engine load. Then we would back off on the timing a deg or two. It's usually good for 5HP or so out of those 1.8L I4 engine - FREE!
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Old 07-20-2012, 02:03 PM   #30
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My problem is I'm supposed to use mid-grade, but nobody uses that so it gets old and loses it's octane and ends up being worse than regular.

I just use premium.
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Old 07-20-2012, 02:56 PM   #31
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Quote:
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My problem is I'm supposed to use mid-grade, but nobody uses that so it gets old and loses it's octane and ends up being worse than regular.

I just use premium.
I thought mid grade was just a mix of to other two.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #32
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87-89-91 octane

Mid-grade = 89 octane.

I actually used to mix 87+91.
Got lazy. Don't really think I can be accurate enough with bottled octane either.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:35 PM   #33
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I see what you're saying.

Yeah, so some pumps are mixed and some have separate storage tanks. I have no idea how to find out which ones do that, but I've had some awfully bad pinging in the past from some fill-ups.

To the point I wanted to complain about the fuel.
Also, Some gas stations fill up more than 4.1 gallons in my tank which is the absolute fullest capacity. I really don't trust gas stations.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtelevisionset View Post
I see what you're saying.

Yeah, so some pumps are mixed and some have separate storage tanks. I have no idea how to find out which ones do that, but I've had some awfully bad pinging in the past from some fill-ups.

To the point I wanted to complain about the fuel.
Also, Some gas stations fill up more than 4.1 gallons in my tank which is the absolute fullest capacity. I really don't trust gas stations.
Only 4.1 Gal? My 250 has a 4.7 gal tank.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Only 4.1 Gal? My 250 has a 4.7 gal tank.
That is if I can trust the owner's manual.
I know it says as much as 5.2 on websites, but the manual definitely says 3.0 gal tank + 1.1 gal reserve.
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Last edited by xtelevisionset; 07-20-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:17 PM   #36
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Some people just make too complicated when it comes to trivial
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Also, Some gas stations fill up more than 4.1 gallons in my tank which is the absolute fullest capacity. I really don't trust gas stations.
You're not supposed to fill the tank up to the neck

My CBR indicates how much fuel I've used to a tenth of a gallon, and every Shell station I've filled up at matches my gauge exactly. When you're pumping less than 5 gallons, most pumps are pretty accurate
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Last edited by Bevo; 07-20-2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
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You're not supposed to fill the tank up to the neck
What happens if you fill it to the top?
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:24 PM   #39
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Quote:
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What happens if you fill it to the top?
Gas might go into the charcoal canisters and render them ineffective.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
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What happens if you fill it to the top?
Depends on the bike, but the point is manufacturers usually don't measure tank capacity to the top of the neck.
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