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Old 07-11-2012, 04:46 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
if you google this subject there are many different opinions regarding this. Like i had mentioned before, everyone has their own opinion.


Essentially when you tap the rear brake all it does is scrub some speed. Front brakes will want to stand up the bike.

again we are talking noob speeds not track speeds.

However this guy here has it right! He would prefer to not touch any brakes at all and just lean and countersteer and throttle rather than use brakes, but if he did he would use rear in a turn.

So, you all can continue to condascend, but mind you this is the street not the track. and Noob rides are street speeds. In a panic situation the worse thingthat can happen if they dont cover their brakes is they will lean, counter steer and throttle, and actually look like they know what they are doing.
I will attempt to address this in a way that will hopefully clarify and correct as needed your sentiments about rear brakes but that will not confuse the out of people who have been reading your comments.

In a "panic situation," inexperienced riders are very unlikely to maintain enough presence of mind to brake gradually...ESPECIALLY with the rear. Think about panic braking in a car: you stomp the brake pedal. This action carries over into motorcycles. An inexperienced rider is extremely likely to stomp the rear if they panic, causing the rear to slide. It takes much less force on the pedal to lock the rear than people realize. Traction limits with the rear brake should be tested in an empty parking lot...not turns.

Inexperienced riders who are uncomfortable in turns will often already be rolling off the throttle as they enter the turn and will continue decelerating until they reach the apex. In this situation, it takes even LESS force on the pedal to lock the rear tire and slide because engine braking shifts the weight of the bike and rider forward. Couple that with the panic stomp learned in cars and do the math. Your advice of "tapping" the rear is not only incorrect but also very difficult (if not impossible) for inexperienced riders to perform in a panic situation.

I also believe that your "noob speeds vs. track speeds" comment is way off base. You do realize that the three primary motorcycle schools for the Houston area offer Level 1 instruction, right? I can't speak for all three, but I know for a fact at least one teaches Level 1 riders how to ride the entire track without ever touching the brakes. If it can be done on the tight turns of a track, the only reason to use brakes in a turn on a public road ridden at "noob" speed is if there is something in your lane of travel moving slower than you are. I will paraphrase Lurch's post for a description of "noob" speeds: Posted speed limit in straights, suggested speeds (yellow signs) in turns.

For clarification, when I used the phrase "panic situation" above, I intend it to mean entering a turn at a speed faster than the rider is comfortable with.
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Old 07-11-2012, 04:56 PM   #182
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If this weather holds up ill be showing up to tje central meet. Again i dont wear chaps and im sure im 20 years his elder. And not asian, 100% cauc-asian lol.
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Old 07-11-2012, 04:58 PM   #183
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For most noobs BP is NOT the problem. Panic braking just before or during a turn IS the problem.
This is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed senator. Again im an advocate for no brakes in this situation. Howeva, scrubbin speed using the rear brakes is more effective for noobs in a turn.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:02 PM   #184
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Quote:
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This is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed senator. Again im an advocate for no brakes in this situation. Howeva, scrubbin speed using the rear brakes is more effective for noobs in a turn.
How about teaching noobs to scrub speed BEFORE the turn? Much safer. If they can't even go through a turn at suggested speeds without freaking out, they sure as can't brake in a turn without freaking out.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:31 PM   #185
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The July 4 ride wasn't a dedicted noob to the twisties type ride. We didn't have near enough helpers to watch and teach, and it was never promoted that way.

It was just a noob paced group on a group ride.

Also, "moderate" has no place on a "noob" ride.
Any question regarding the setup, execution, and safety of a noob ride should just PM this guy. (texlurch)

An abundance of misinformation in this thread and IMO it should be simply deleted. Senators thread more than covered this topic.

Keep it simple people.

/thread
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:50 PM   #186
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Quote:
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Essentially when you tap the rear brake all it does is scrub some speed. Front brakes will want to stand up the bike.
So we know you avoided answering the first question, but you forgot about this one.

I want you to explain this one on here, not in person, so I can quote it.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:02 PM   #187
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How about teaching noobs to scrub speed BEFORE the turn? Much safer. If they can't even go through a turn at suggested speeds without freaking out, they sure as can't brake in a turn without freaking out.
This is a given regarding entry speed.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:08 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
So we know you avoided answering the first question, but you forgot about this one.

I want you to explain this one on here, not in person, so I can quote it.

Thanks in advance.
Ok ill give ot a go. If leaned over and you apply front brakes the front wheel will start to straigten up. Go at ot a little harder and it will urn in.

Btw it was a dumb question to be proposed for a noob discussion and again depends on the the surrounding terrain.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:15 PM   #189
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Quote:
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This is a given regarding entry speed.
If you are truly trying to be helpful and are not just trolling, please work on your delivery. If you cannot articulate your advice in such a way as to avoid confusion then you should not offer it.

This thread is about guidelines for noob rides, and your comments thus far have not served to meet the intended purpose of this thread. I would have blocked your posts by now if there wasn't such a high likelihood of having to correct your inadequately articulated and possibly dangerous advice so inexperienced riders who know no better can avoid hurting themselves.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
Ok ill give ot a go. If leaned over and you apply front brakes the front wheel will start to straigten up. Go at ot a little harder and it will urn in.

Btw it was a dumb question to be proposed for a noob discussion and again depends on the the surrounding terrain.
No it's not, because once again you give bad information.

Using the front brakes, will not stand the bike up.

Were you not just trying to prove about not using a ALOT of front brakes in a turn because of lowside potential?! That was your argument in the other thread, did you forget?

The only input that I know of that makes the bike want to stand up, without throwing your body weight around, is accelerating. Hence when you are diving into a turn too much, and getting close to the middle line as TexLurch describes, you'd want to add a bit of throttle, stand the bike up a little more in order to not have to counter-steer so hard, and widen out your line.
Using throttle maintenance, as you described earlier as well.

It just sounds like you are regurgitating something you read in a magazine or heard at a biker bar, and have no idea how the physics and geometry work sometimes.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #191
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ok sooo after all of this I would like to ask 07 blanco and senator to put on a noob ride soon, I know both of you guys and that would be a great ride for the noobs. Ill be mnore then happy to be a helper. Old school feel free to say something stupid about this idea.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #192
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How far behind are you suppose to follow? It seems like people follow pretty closely. I always feel like I'm gonna rear end someone mid corner following as close as I see others do.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:37 PM   #193
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Quote:
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http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ho..._street_savvy/

This is one example of a resource from a reputable source.
It restates a lot of what people here have said in the first place but often time seeing it in print makes an impact.

The gist of the article is that the most efficient and safe way to tuen a bike is to slow down prior to the turn.
What happens if you accidentally turn the wrong way down a one way? It would be beneficial to know how to slow down in a turn. And that is a traffic situation not a track situation.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:01 PM   #194
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Quote:
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Essentially when you tap the rear brake all it does is scrub some speed. Front brakes will want to stand up the bike.
That is such bullshit. Who the has more control and finesse using a boot to apply brakes rather than fingers, and I use both brakes 90% of the time. Most here ride sportbikes, not TMAXs, not custom choppers, but sportbikes. They put two discs on the front wheel for a reason, and it's not for looks.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:04 PM   #195
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Quote:
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If this weather holds up ill be showing up to tje central meet. Again i dont wear chaps and im sure im 20 years his elder. And not asian, 100% cauc-asian lol.
It's fun to pretend
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:12 PM   #196
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Quote:
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This is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed senator. Again im an advocate for no brakes in this situation. Howeva, scrubbin speed using the rear brakes is more effective for noobs in a turn.
No it's not, they should just turn the bike. That's the easiest. They turned the bike on the way to the meet, they can turn it the exact same way during the ride.

You think you're going to crash, you hit the brakes, you will crash. During most rides if the rider ahead of you made it through the turn, then your bike will make it too if you stay off the brakes and steer.

A says use more throttle to make any wheeled vehicle go through a paved turn easier.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:17 PM   #197
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How far behind are you suppose to follow? It seems like people follow pretty closely. I always feel like I'm gonna rear end someone mid corner following as close as I see others do.
A minimum of 2 seconds distance
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:56 PM   #198
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Oldschool has great advice for scooter riding and bicycles, but not sure about sport bikes.

My favorite was the"two abreast riding on group rides because it's safer"

Keepin it oldskool
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #199
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No it's not, they should just turn the bike. That's the easiest. They turned the bike on the way to the meet, they can turn it the exact same way during the ride.

You think you're going to crash, you hit the brakes, you will crash. During most rides if the rider ahead of you made it through the turn, then your bike will make it too if you stay off the brakes and steer.

A says use more throttle to make any wheeled vehicle go through a paved turn easier.
We're on the same page here regarding just turning the bike, thus my point of not covering the brakes.

And if you haven't noticed you better throttle a bit more, in a turn, if you're going to lean more.
r
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #200
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Quote:
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And if you haven't noticed you better throttle a bit more, in a turn, if you're going to lean more.
And if you use the front brake, the bike will stand up by itself.

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