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Old 07-04-2012, 11:36 PM   #1
Blanco
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Counter Steering your bike

I did not want to thread jack the 4th of July ride in the "Meets and Rides" forum
but I do feel passionate enough about this subject to bring it up.

There are two basic functions that you need to learn when riding a bike:
1) How to stop. If you cannot stop, you are in big trouble.
2) How to turn your bike. If you cannot turn, you crash. If you cannot guide your bike around an obstacle in your path, you hit hit the obstacle (potentially crashing) rather than steering around it safely.
If you cannot correct a wide line by grabbing the bars and leaning further, you are in deep .
Counter Steering is the way to turn a bike.

Anyway, I watched so many riders today, moving thier legs out, and off the seat in a "quasi roadracer" stance to simply go around rather mundane sweepers that it was mind boggling.
WTF?
Learn to countersteer your bike by pushing on the bars!!! At the end of the day, the only thing the "quasi roadracer" stance at street speeds is accomplishing is countersteering with waaaaaay more effort than is really required to simply push the bars to turn. It is bad form and a bad habit to develop on the street. We are working to improve "Noob's" riding skills so set the right example and teach them how to steer with the bars instead of the illusion of steering by getting off of the saddle.
The life they save may be thier own!!

Here is an intersting read that may be familiar to some but well worth your time.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

***Note*** Yes, when on a track, to obtain maximum lean angles with you knee down or nearly down, getting your off of the seat is required. If you find yourself really needing to that on the street, you are probably going way beyond what is sane on as public road.

So now, go ahead and jump in my for stating the obvious, but if we are a community dedicated to helping and improving new riders, then these issues must be discussed.
Let the flames begin.....
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:24 AM   #2
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From what I understand, leaning off the bike in the direction of the turn can help you keep the bike more upright and therefore get more traction, since you're pushing the bars down in order to counteract the centrifugal force of the turn with the gravitational force on the bike in the opposite direction.
But if you add your body weight to that gravitational counteraction, you won't need to leas as much and won't lowside.

That said, you should push down more if you run wide, that's correct.
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:43 AM   #3
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I think what it boils down to is every rider is truly different. Period.

Just look at the professionals. They have their own technique, meaning braking, throttling, shifting and you guessed it...steering.

I looked at the thread and saw you were with the noob group. So the type of riding you were doing and the speeds u were taking were essentially commuting speeds. In this regard, countersteering is all you really have to do to take your leisurely ride. I agree if you are learning, this is an art which one must educate themselves with. Again. Period.

However, i also noticed there were some experienced riders on that list who may just find it more enjoyable just to hang off like you said to begin their steer and since speeds were at PSL no BAR INPUT would obviously be necessary.

At spirited speeds their are some who may take a 35 posted turn on 3090 by just countersteering, but to me its just not safe, nor would i be comfortable doing so. Every bike is different like Jimrad said and especially so when riding motard. Anyways we aint racing out there so i dont need to learn from superbike people, cause again thats just one "school of thought". And there are many.

MSF is great in kinda good at teaching countersteering in a parking lot, but not really. You do make a good point that maybe on the next real noob ride, leaders, for a portion of the ride have them strictly countersteer, and then after that, have them lean or get off the bike in a turn, cause then this will truly prepare them for more spirited rides when they will have to do both with throttle control. Btw lets not forget throttling haha!

Anyways good point about noobs learning to countersteer.

Lead a noob ride and teach them your school of thought.

I wanna learn how to stop mid turn running spirited say going 80mph in a 45 mph turn when a car crosses in my lane like senator proposed. Not kidding, but serious. Dont mean to thread jack.
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:54 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theManofRussia View Post
From what I understand, leaning off the bike in the direction of the turn can help you keep the bike more upright and therefore get more traction, since you're pushing the bars down in order to counteract the centrifugal force of the turn with the gravitational force on the bike in the opposite direction.
But if you add your body weight to that gravitational counteraction, you won't need to leas as much and won't lowside.

That said, you should push down more if you run wide, that's correct.
True statement. However youre not pushing the bars when u get off the bikethe bars will countersteer on their own, but in most cases depending on your speed the rider will have to assist countersteer.

But the real answer lies in Rossi's brain. We really need to ask motogp people, however, they probably all have their own technique.
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:01 AM   #5
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I wanna learn how to stop mid turn running spirited say going 80mph in a 45 mph turn when a car crosses in my lane like senator proposed. Not kidding, but serious. Dont mean to thread jack.
Practice on an empty road. It takes practice and repetition to develop the muscle memory to where it becomes second nature. Also riding a lot over time will help you get in tune with your bike so you can feel what your bike is doing and how it is responding to rider input.

Noob rides are suppose to be for familiarization of your bike and riding skills. Riding in a group is an experience since you have to be constantly scanning ahead of you. That's why we remove the speed factor from the riding so more focus can be placed upon the riding getting comfortable with their bike and and skill level. Also seeing what the rider in front is doing and mimicking it helps the learning process.

This topic on steering is like beating a dead horse. The only way a rider will learn is by practicing and learning from it. Reading it may not make sense until they try it on their own in a controlled environment.
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
From what I understand, leaning off the bike in the direction of the turn can help you keep the bike more upright and therefore get more traction, since you're pushing the bars down in order to counteract the centrifugal force of the turn with the gravitational force on the bike in the opposite direction.
But if you add your body weight to that gravitational counteraction, you won't need to leas as much and won't lowside.

That said, you should push down more if you run wide, that's correct.
As provided by op...if you need to move off the seat to handle a turn on the street you're going way too fast for any public roadway.
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:32 AM   #7
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Whether they realize it or not, anyone that's ever gone through a turn at more than 20mph has steered (countersteered) their bike, period. It's not some magical skill. The faster you go through a specific turn, the more force is required on the bars whether you choose to hang off or not. It's the same with a car. More force has to be applied to the steering wheel the faster you go through a turn.

Hanging off doesn't make the bike lean, steering it does. Hanging off only makes the bike lean less which is sometimes required to keep the pegs from dragging.

On spirited rides I hang off because that's what's most comfortable and natural to me
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:33 AM   #8
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I agree with all.. ain't that weird
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:51 AM   #9
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I wasn't on that ride, but if i was, I'd be one of the guys boggling minds with my hanging off at noob speeds.

Why?
Because it's developing a habbit that I'd like to keep for the faster turns.

If a turn gets tighter than I expected or I have to adjust my line, I'd rather be off the edge than try to shift body weight mid-corner. By leaning off a little, i know I won't just dip the bike even farther down when trying to tighten up a corner.

I generally accelerate through the turn, sometimes fairly spiritedly.... I'd prefer the bike be fairly upright.

It does no harm (well, other than wearing the center of my tires more than they arlready are and upsetting my spectators.)

Oh, and I weigh 135lbs... I have to hang WAY off to get the same weight shift effect some of ya'll do by tilting your head
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool View Post
I think what it boils down to is every rider is truly different. Period.

Just look at the professionals. They have their own technique, meaning braking, throttling, shifting and you guessed it...steering.

Paragraph two invalidates paragraph one, accounting for the one nugget of truth in it. The top level riders have very similar styles. , the top level riders have very similar physical builds too. The closer your get to the pinnacle the less variation in riding style exists. Does that mean that the top guys have it all nailed 100% perfect? No. But when someone tries something new and it works, many other riders immediately pick up that technique. However, changes don't happen often. The prime example is Ben Spies: in his AMA and WSBK days he earned the nickname "elbowz" due to his unique elbows-out riding style. When he got to GP, he started tucking them in...just like everyone else.

Its pleasant to think that everyone is a unique snowflake, and can accomplish the same task with their own unique snowflakey method, but the cold truth of the matter is this: physics applies the same way to all of us.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:04 AM   #11
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I 2nd. Bevo. I find "Fixation" to be a bigger problem than the steering style. And to add, i have seen more people going wide on street riding straight up position then those who are hanging off the bike. Many of those guys(not all) who hang off the bike even in low speed turns, are either accustomed to it because they are track junkies, or are practicing BP. If that is communicated to the noobs who rae not familiar with the body positioning subject, and the wrong image or information were transmitted to those who are just starting to ride, then this may be a subject to be addresses and corrected. Good to bring it up Blanco, now let's hear the experts!
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepine View Post
I 2nd. Bevo. I find "Fixation" to be a bigger problem than the steering style. And to add, i have seen more people going wide on street riding straight up position then those who are hanging off the bike. Many of those guys(not all) who hang off the bike even in low speed turns, are either accustomed to it because they are track junkies, or are practicing BP. If that is communicated to the noobs who rae not familiar with the body positioning subject, and the wrong image or information were transmitted to those who are just starting to ride, then this may be a subject to be addresses and corrected. Good to bring it up Blanco, now let's hear the experts!
If you're hanging off, you've already committed to the turn.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:10 AM   #13
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If you're hanging off, you've already committed to the turn.
Lol! I second that too!
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:28 AM   #14
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Anyway, I watched so many riders today, moving thier legs out, and off the seat in a "quasi roadracer" stance to simply go around rather mundane sweepers that it was mind boggling.
WTF?
Being a very experienced rider and racer for the past ten plus years. I dont see anything wrong with working on and improving technique and riding skills while on a street ride. Sometimes I go to ride and enjoy myself and I ride the way you stated above "quasi roadracer" and sometimes I go to help the noobs and the ride leaders. My riding style changes significanlty between the two. It entirely depends on what my desired outcome of the ride is for that day.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:28 AM   #15
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Two things I remember being told as a kid, trying to learn ... you guys tell me if this still holds true?

1) Steering is pushing the handle bars, not pulling.

In other words, when entering the turn you push the side of the bars opposite of the direction of the turn. Whereas, many people think you pull in on the inside bar. But, in reality most of the energy is applied pushing the opposite side of the bar.

2) Outside, Inside, Outside ...

This technique simply means, when possible, enter the turn up high in the turn with the goal being on the low inside at the center of the turn and as you accelerate out of the turn you will rise back up high in the exit of the turn.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:32 AM   #16
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BTW... If my sport bike weighed nearly as much as my harley I probably wouldnt ride "quasi roadracer" and wouldnt lean as much either. HAHAHA..... I think the ZX14 is pushing 600 LBS isnt it ? Yes... I understand they can go 200 MPH !
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
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...
2) Outside, Inside, Outside ...

This technique simply means, when possible, enter the turn up high in the turn with the goal being on the low inside at the center of the turn and as you accelerate out of the turn you will rise back up high in the exit of the turn.
While technically correct, be very careful with that approach on street rides. I'd venture to say that most street riders actively practicing this on a "route" are steering to the outside instead of letting throttle application carry them there. I did the same when I first started. Given that intentional steering it's very easy to fixate for just a moment and run wide. Several members here can give you first hand accounts of exactly what that means on a street ride.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid View Post
Two things I remember being told as a kid, trying to learn ... you guys tell me if this still holds true?

1) Steering is pushing the handle bars, not pulling.

In other words, when entering the turn you push the side of the bars opposite of the direction of the turn. Whereas, many people think you pull in on the inside bar. But, in reality most of the energy is applied pushing the opposite side of the bar.

2) Outside, Inside, Outside ...

This technique simply means, when possible, enter the turn up high in the turn with the goal being on the low inside at the center of the turn and as you accelerate out of the turn you will rise back up high in the exit of the turn.
1. Well, you can look at it this way...turn left push with the left hand, turn right push the right hand

2. Yea
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:40 AM   #19
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I think everything stated above are correct, but critically, "look where you are going" eyes, eyes, eyes! The farter you look, slower it feels, and where you look, the bike will go!
People try to apply all the proper technique prior and entering the turn, then see a naked Manuela Raffaela on the side of the road, and i see them kissing the dirt and eating cow's dump.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:54 AM   #20
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it is sometimes hard for me to put into words what it is I do preparing for, and during a turn...I think for me the biggest thing really is looking where I want to go, looking thru the turn, all the way thru and not just where the bike is going at that second...
when I look completely thru the turn to where I want to go, the body and bike just do what they are supposed to do, if i try to think it thru, i fall down.
sort of like batting or swinging a golf club, if i thought about the swing, I would mess it up, if i concentrated on where i wanted the ball to go, the swing would take care of itself.
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