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Old 07-03-2012, 02:29 AM   #1
sik9
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LED Experts...help please!

I'm thinking about installing some LEDs on my bike and use them as turn signals. I found these awesome LEDs
http://www.oznium.com/four-chip-led

The yellow ones require 2.0V and 80 mA. Now from what I understand If i wire the LED to the battery directly I'd need a resistor to lower the voltage and avoid burning the LED.

I want to wire 24 LEDs on each side.If I wire them in series in 4 groups of 6 LEDs each then I shouldn't need a resistor, is that correct? 6x2=12 so should be good voltage wise. Each group would take up 80 mA so 320 mA total on each side.

Is this set up right? I'm confused as to whether they will be bright enough or not. There are prewired LEDs with resistors on the website too. But if I use those then I would need 38.4 Amps total from the relay. I don't know what its capacity so I dont know if that'd work.

How many amps can the turn signal relay handle on a cbr600rr. I doubt it matters but mine is 2009 model.

I read all sorts of suggestions from using voltage regulators to doing parallel series combinations.

Thank you!!
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:40 AM   #2
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to avoid all that work, buy LED signals... then just replace the LED's. otherwise, u'd need to create a circuit board of some sort. and they are cheap enough that you wouldn't need to DIY it. The cost on those LED's.. vs a premade one from china is pretty significant. I got mine for 10$ a pair shipped. and they show at 180 degree angle. Just a thought.
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:44 AM   #3
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Im trying to get rid of the side signals and integrate the LED's in the body somehow. So that when I signal it looks like most of the side is lighting up
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:07 AM   #4
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How about an led strip like this. You can tuck it under the subframe so that its visible from the rear, and they're made for 12v for an easy install.

http://www.customdynamics.com/trufle...d_lighting.htm
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:18 AM   #5
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integrated is good. I'm working on mine as well but more towards strips. and just tactically placethem where fairings overlap or behind the side vents.
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:43 AM   #6
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Source voltage 12 volt
diode forward voltage 2.0
diode forward current (mA) 80
number of LEDs in your array 6



Solution 0: 6 x 1 array uses 6 LEDs exactly

+12V R = 1 ohms

The wizard says: In solution 0:
each 1 ohm resistor dissipates 6.4 mW
the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application
together, all resistors dissipate 6.4 mW
together, the diodes dissipate 960 mW
total power dissipated by the array is 966.4 mW
the array draws current of 80 mA from the source.

You will need a 1 ohm resistor.
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:46 AM   #7
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It will be connected like this,

+LED-/+LED-/+LED-/+LED-/+LED-/+LED-/1ohm resistor-


Now keep in mind you will still need a load balance for turn signals because the current turn signal flasher unit will not work if you original had incadescent bulbs. Don't go buy one there crazy expensive, you can get the same thing from Radio Shack for a couple of bucks. I believe it is a 10Watt 100ohm resistor if I am not mistaken. I know I needed this on my turn signals for the front, but these signals were already made.
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Last edited by anatram; 07-03-2012 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sik9 View Post
Im trying to get rid of the side signals and integrate the LED's in the body somehow. So that when I signal it looks like most of the side is lighting up
I'm not sure, but I'm thinking this is probably not legal. May want to check into to it before moving forward.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #9
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Just go to http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-b...sp=%2F1157.htm and get the direct replacement bulbs. I've done this for many of my cars' interior bulbs, which really helps to reduce the chance of dead battery when my kids don't turn off the overhead cabin lights. I also changed several of my bikes' parking/indicator/brake lights. For turn signals, you will usually need to replace the flashing module. The same webside above has them for just about every make and model. I bought an electronic flasher module for the Suzuki S83, and it turns out to be the same as the Yamaha FZ1.
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatram View Post
Source voltage 12 volt
diode forward voltage 2.0
diode forward current (mA) 80
number of LEDs in your array 6



Solution 0: 6 x 1 array uses 6 LEDs exactly

+12V R = 1 ohms

The wizard says: In solution 0:
each 1 ohm resistor dissipates 6.4 mW
the wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application
together, all resistors dissipate 6.4 mW
together, the diodes dissipate 960 mW
total power dissipated by the array is 966.4 mW
the array draws current of 80 mA from the source.

You will need a 1 ohm resistor.
The force is strong with this one^^^...

make sure you post some pics I would like to see the end result
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:23 AM   #11
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatram View Post

Now keep in mind you will still need a load balance for turn signals because the current turn signal flasher unit will not work if you original had incadescent bulbs. Don't go buy one there crazy expensive, you can get the same thing from Radio Shack for a couple of bucks. I believe it is a 10Watt 100ohm resistor if I am not mistaken. I know I needed this on my turn signals for the front, but these signals were already made.
Didn't quite understand that...can you explain more please! So i need a different flasher relay?
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLite View Post
How about an led strip like this. You can tuck it under the subframe so that its visible from the rear, and they're made for 12v for an easy install.

http://www.customdynamics.com/trufle...d_lighting.htm
The LED's I found were brighter combined!
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sik9 View Post
Didn't quite understand that...can you explain more please! So i need a different flasher relay?
Incandescent bulbs draw much more current than LED's. A flasher relay typically utilizes that current to heat up a bimetallic strip that then opens the circuit until it cools and then closes and repeats. LED's alone do not draw enough current to heat up the flasher, so paralleling a resistor to waste energy may be needed.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sik9 View Post
Didn't quite understand that...can you explain more please! So i need a different flasher relay?
The flasher realy on your bike uses a standard incadescent bulb. The incadesacent buld require higher voltage/amperage to operate. When you swap in an LED turn signal, it makes the flasher unit think you have a burnt out bulb. This will cause the flasher unit to blink/flash twice as fast becasue of the reduced amount of current required to operate the led.


A LED turn signals & load balancer how-to.

I decided to convert to LED turn signals while doing some re-wiring and reinforcing. LEDs are not only highly shock resistant, but have just about an infinite lifetime, and can be made quite bright (and in choice of desired signal colors, lenses and housings).

Selecting and mounting the LED turn signals is no big deal one way or another, with many 3rd party ones to choose from and with many ways to install. But as forewarned, once you install them, they do not blink. I tried it and found this to be true. The recommendation is to use a ‘load balancer’.

Figure 1: Typical turn signals circuitry

If all you do first is replace the bulbs with LED lights, all is normal, except the lights don’t blink when you push the turn signal switch. It turns out that the root cause is very simple. Standard bulbs, at around 20-30 watts, and at 12-14 volts, draw a couple of amps. A note on values specified in the writeup: I purposely use rough numbers, or what in engineering is called ’dimensional analysis’, since exact microamps or milliohms do not matter for the basic problem at hand here.

Back to topic: normal electromechanical flashers need an amp or two to flash on and off. But LEDs draw only a few milliamps, which is not enough to activate these flashers. Hence the edict to use ‘load balancers’. So what is a ‘load balancer’? Well, turns out it is nothing but a dummy load, or more simply called: ‘a resistor’. By installing a resistor in parallel with your light, when you push the turn signal switch the resistor acts as a dummy load, drawing the amps you need in order to make the flasher work.
So here is what I did and what the circuit looks like with the resistors installed:

Figure 2: LEDs with resistors circuitry

How to pick the resistor? Resistor is voltage divided by current (ohms = volts / amps). You figure you have 12-14 volts from the battery, and you need 1 amp – so a 10 ohm resistor does the trick (remember – just dimensional analysis here).

How beefy a resistor? That is important. Power equals voltages times current (watts = amps x volts), so 12-14 volts times 1 amp yields a 10 watt resistor (dimensional analysis here again – our mantra). You can get away with a lower wattage resistor because current flows through the resistor – and hence heat generated - only during the light-on duty cycle. But anything much less and you will blow the resistor soon due to the excessive heat generated.

In my case I used 10 ohm 10 watt resistor for each side, and all fits and works great. But at this point in your design dimensional analysis is to stop as you get to choosing specific parts; for your exact solution you will need to measure and try different values if you are not sure, and to account for different flashers, duty cycles, and resistor types. I actually held the resistor in my hand for example while signaling for 20-30 seconds, and found it to warm up slightly but not more, so all was cool.

I also tested to see if I get even and consistent flashing, which I did, at about 50% duty cycle, about 1/2 a second on, about 1/2 a second off. Good enough to hit the road!

OK, so back to that ‘load balancer’ (which we now know is nothing but a fancy name for ‘a resistor’). You can use it, and you may even like the package, or it fits best on your motorcycle. Just be aware that it needs to be connected ‘after’ the switches (i.e. on the other side of the switches from the battery and flasher). This is shown in the figure below, and since most of these balancers are dual balancers (two separate resistors in one package) I show that. Sometimes they do not simply configure well with the bike’s existing wiring, but of course you will re-wire as you need to. As far as prices, two resistors cost $2-$3 bucks at Radio Shack, and a dual load balancer costs $20-$60 bucks at various online catalog stores.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #16
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatram View Post
The flasher realy on your bike uses a standard incadescent bulb. The incadesacent buld require higher voltage/amperage to operate. When you swap in an LED turn signal, it makes the flasher unit think you have a burnt out bulb. This will cause the flasher unit to blink/flash twice as fast becasue of the reduced amount of current required to operate the led.


A LED turn signals & load balancer how-to.

I decided to convert to LED turn signals while doing some re-wiring and reinforcing. LEDs are not only highly shock resistant, but have just about an infinite lifetime, and can be made quite bright (and in choice of desired signal colors, lenses and housings).

Selecting and mounting the LED turn signals is no big deal one way or another, with many 3rd party ones to choose from and with many ways to install. But as forewarned, once you install them, they do not blink. I tried it and found this to be true. The recommendation is to use a ‘load balancer’.

Figure 1: Typical turn signals circuitry

If all you do first is replace the bulbs with LED lights, all is normal, except the lights don’t blink when you push the turn signal switch. It turns out that the root cause is very simple. Standard bulbs, at around 20-30 watts, and at 12-14 volts, draw a couple of amps. A note on values specified in the writeup: I purposely use rough numbers, or what in engineering is called ’dimensional analysis’, since exact microamps or milliohms do not matter for the basic problem at hand here.

Back to topic: normal electromechanical flashers need an amp or two to flash on and off. But LEDs draw only a few milliamps, which is not enough to activate these flashers. Hence the edict to use ‘load balancers’. So what is a ‘load balancer’? Well, turns out it is nothing but a dummy load, or more simply called: ‘a resistor’. By installing a resistor in parallel with your light, when you push the turn signal switch the resistor acts as a dummy load, drawing the amps you need in order to make the flasher work.
So here is what I did and what the circuit looks like with the resistors installed:

Figure 2: LEDs with resistors circuitry

How to pick the resistor? Resistor is voltage divided by current (ohms = volts / amps). You figure you have 12-14 volts from the battery, and you need 1 amp – so a 10 ohm resistor does the trick (remember – just dimensional analysis here).

How beefy a resistor? That is important. Power equals voltages times current (watts = amps x volts), so 12-14 volts times 1 amp yields a 10 watt resistor (dimensional analysis here again – our mantra). You can get away with a lower wattage resistor because current flows through the resistor – and hence heat generated - only during the light-on duty cycle. But anything much less and you will blow the resistor soon due to the excessive heat generated.

In my case I used 10 ohm 10 watt resistor for each side, and all fits and works great. But at this point in your design dimensional analysis is to stop as you get to choosing specific parts; for your exact solution you will need to measure and try different values if you are not sure, and to account for different flashers, duty cycles, and resistor types. I actually held the resistor in my hand for example while signaling for 20-30 seconds, and found it to warm up slightly but not more, so all was cool.

I also tested to see if I get even and consistent flashing, which I did, at about 50% duty cycle, about 1/2 a second on, about 1/2 a second off. Good enough to hit the road!

OK, so back to that ‘load balancer’ (which we now know is nothing but a fancy name for ‘a resistor’). You can use it, and you may even like the package, or it fits best on your motorcycle. Just be aware that it needs to be connected ‘after’ the switches (i.e. on the other side of the switches from the battery and flasher). This is shown in the figure below, and since most of these balancers are dual balancers (two separate resistors in one package) I show that. Sometimes they do not simply configure well with the bike’s existing wiring, but of course you will re-wire as you need to. As far as prices, two resistors cost $2-$3 bucks at Radio Shack, and a dual load balancer costs $20-$60 bucks at various online catalog stores.
Bear with me here I am somewhat slow with these things...

So I need 4 resistors? 2 to act as load balancers 10 ohms each and two that are 1 ohm each?

I was reading up online and many said that a true 1 ohm resistor is hard to find and can usually be skipped.

Also what would happen if I wire the LED's in parallel? Each with a resistor directly to the old turn signal wire.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:16 PM   #18
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The forward breakdown voltage of an LED is 0.7 volts DC. The amperage needed for most LEDs at full brightness is 20mA. Given a 12 volts DC source you could a string of 10 LEDs then a 250 ohm resistor inline. This would set the current at 20mA. You could put as many of these in parallel as you wanted as long as your relay can handle the (number of parallel strings) * (20mA) amperage. If you want any more info let me know.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sik9 View Post
Bear with me here I am somewhat slow with these things...

So I need 4 resistors? 2 to act as load balancers 10 ohms each and two that are 1 ohm each?

I was reading up online and many said that a true 1 ohm resistor is hard to find and can usually be skipped.

Also what would happen if I wire the LED's in parallel? Each with a resistor directly to the old turn signal wire.

No, you need two resistors, one for each LED assembly, then you will need an additional 2 larger resistors to act as a load balancer.

If you hook the LEDS in Parallel, you will blow them out, becasue you are introducing too much current/amps to the LED, they will blow one by one, LEDS are not designed for a continous 12 volts, without stepping down.

When you do this they glow for about 1/2 a second and them pop and smoke.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:22 PM   #20
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