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Old 12-05-2006, 01:53 AM   #61
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Yeah, it's hard to talk very in depth about this without knowing economics, and even then it's speculation. if they did kick every illegal immigrant out and built a huge fence across the border, what do you think would happen though? we'd have to hire 5,000 more troops to guard the border, spend billions on keeping them out...but maybe it would help save money?? speculation.. who knows what's the best solution, all i'm saying is i'd do the same thing if i was them and i think most people would, so in that respect i don't think what they are doing is wrong.
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Old 12-05-2006, 01:59 AM   #62
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Well unfortunately id have to agree..Id probably do the same thing..Although it is no doubt in my mind that it is wrong and it has negative/positive effects....But thats why we need to work on this kinda ..i dunno, like i said in another thread, Ive been drinking good ol chardonay wine so im not gonna post anymore...LOL...Peace!!!
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Old 12-05-2006, 11:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02
Yeah, it's hard to talk very in depth about this without knowing economics, and even then it's speculation. if they did kick every illegal immigrant out and built a huge fence across the border, what do you think would happen though? we'd have to hire 5,000 more troops to guard the border, spend billions on keeping them out...but maybe it would help save money?? speculation.. who knows what's the best solution, all i'm saying is i'd do the same thing if i was them and i think most people would, so in that respect i don't think what they are doing is wrong.
Although I disagree, I understand your perspective. However, what you are not considering is that not only is the economy heavily burdened by illegal immigration but some of the key social elements in our country like healthcare (our neighborhood clinics happen to be a prime target of illegals) is being burdened as well.

-This means our tax dollars are financing those that are not officially a part of this nation... (I don't know about you but I don't feel that we should help others when american citizens are still in need)

-They come to work and send money to their families, but that is exactly the problem, they are sending the money to Asia or Mexico or where ever else thery may come from... which means that the profits from the expenditure of those monies are not observed by American businesses but rather, Mexican, Asian or other businesses...this evidently does not help the American economy...

The bottom line is this:
A number of illegal immigrants don't seem to hold full allegiance to America. As observed during the summer rallies, most didn't even fly American flags but rather, Mexican and other flags. To this end, I can only imagine that they would just as soon move to Canada if it benefitted their interests. This was greatly disturbing. One should not have allegiance to any but one country. By all means come to this country, but come legally. And be American. I leave you this quote from Theodore Roosevelt, one of this nations great historical figures:

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"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.

This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.

But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.

The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American."
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:55 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Although I disagree, I understand your perspective. However, what you are not considering is that not only is the economy heavily burdened by illegal immigration but some of the key social elements in our country like healthcare (our neighborhood clinics happen to be a prime target of illegals) is being burdened as well.

-This means our tax dollars are financing those that are not officially a part of this nation... (I don't know about you but I don't feel that we should help others when american citizens are still in need)

-They come to work and send money to their families, but that is exactly the problem, they are sending the money to Asia or Mexico or where ever else thery may come from... which means that the profits from the expenditure of those monies are not observed by American businesses but rather, Mexican, Asian or other businesses...this evidently does not help the American economy...
like i said, i don't know how much illegal immigration has affected this country or will affect it, anyone wanna throw out some good stats? I understand that the money they make leaves the country, but that itself just makes me see them as more honorable. they bust their to get into america, work jobs, and then send what little they make back home. From an economic perspective, this is bad, but from a humanistic perspective it's commendable.
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:07 PM   #65
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:20 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
-This means our tax dollars are financing those that are not officially a part of this nation... (I don't know about you but I don't feel that we should help others when american citizens are still in need)

-They come to work and send money to their families, but that is exactly the problem, they are sending the money to Asia or Mexico or where ever else thery may come from... which means that the profits from the expenditure of those monies are not observed by American businesses but rather, Mexican, Asian or other businesses...this evidently does not help the American economy...
Just an observation: Billions of tax dollars are ALREADY financing people who are not US citizens and who DON'T even set foot on US soil.........so IMHO the people who come over here and work to support themselves and their families should be allowed to do so.
Most are good people, not asking for a handout just a hand UP so why do we make it such an ordeal to become a citizen?
Also, how many thousands of Americans are living abroad collectin their SSI benefits...............and NOT spending one dime to benefit American businesses? But I guess that's ok?:eh:
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:23 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
Just an observation: Billions of tax dollars are ALREADY financing people who are not US citizens and who DON'T even set foot on US soil.........so IMHO the people who come over here and work to support themselves and their families should be allowed to do so.
Most are good people, not asking for a handout just a hand UP so why do we make it such an ordeal to become a citizen?
Also, how many thousands of Americans are living abroad collectin their SSI benefits...............and NOT spending one dime to benefit American businesses? But I guess that's ok?:eh:

I know several towns down in my state that is 80% NorthAmerican. Mostly retired or rich.
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:29 PM   #68
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I know several towns down in my state that is 80% NorthAmerican. Mostly retired or rich.
I have several friends that live in Mexico, Costa Rica, Belize and in a lot of ways I don't blame them because they can live real good on SSI.
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:33 PM   #69
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is it me or do you just so more and more illegals. I think it's finally getting to the point there's just way way to many of them. any hope on who's going to stop it??
Nope, no professional politicians with enough huevos. (practicing my spanish there)
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:34 PM   #70
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I have several friends that I care about but at the same time me off. THere were lucky enough to be born in the border. A while back you could get a border ID card that allowed you to cross back and for anytime. Well with that ability they were born in the US but raised in Mexico. They own land in both places but they don't speak English or care about it at all. And here we are some of us trying to legally become part of this country and is taking us more than 6 years. That is what me off. But at some point I believe that all my efforts will be worth it. (I hope so)
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:39 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
Just an observation: Billions of tax dollars are ALREADY financing people who are not US citizens and who DON'T even set foot on US soil...
I realize this, but therein lies the concept of intent. Those monies used to finance clinics here in the US are intended for American citizens. To the contrary, those monies used to finance humanitarian aid across the world are intended to be for those groups abroad. So let us not confuse the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
...so IMHO the people who come over here and work to support themselves and their families should be allowed to do so.
...Can't say I disagree, I'd just appreciate it if it were done legally. If everyone else has to wait in line, why should those who are conveniently a few miles from the border allowed to exploit their situation and given a pass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
Most are good people, not asking for a handout just a hand UP so why do we make it such an ordeal to become a citizen?
Yes, I'm sure most ARE good people, but that doesn't mean that they should get a pass. Were that the case, then why aren't the African refugees in the Sudan allowed to be flown here to the states for their safety? I'm more than sure they would work hard and be capable of withstanding the worst of conditions considering their current situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
Also, how many thousands of Americans are living abroad collectin their SSI benefits...............and NOT spending one dime to benefit American businesses? But I guess that's ok?:eh:
...and yet they are receiving those SSI benefits due to some contribution they've made to this country (I presume you are referring to those retired individuals living abroad). Yes, it sucks they left but if they have actually made a contribution to this country and happened to have paid SS themselves, they are due something in return, are they not ? All I'm saying is that I welcome the new citizens but I prefer you to take the legal route. Sure it may take longer but then again, perhaps you'll appreciate it that much more.
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:58 PM   #72
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I realize this, but therein lies the concept of intent. Those monies used to finance clinics here in the US are intended for American citizens. To the contrary, those monies used to finance humanitarian aid across the world are intended to be for those groups abroad. So let us not confuse the two.



...Can't say I disagree, I'd just appreciate it if it were done legally. If everyone else has to wait in line, why should those who are conveniently a few miles from the border allowed to exploit their situation and given a pass?



Yes, I'm sure most ARE good people, but that doesn't mean that they should get a pass. Were that the case, then why aren't the African refugees in the Sudan allowed to be flown here to the states for their safety? I'm more than sure they would work hard and be capable of withstanding the worst of conditions considering their current situation.



...and yet they are receiving those SSI benefits due to some contribution they've made to this country (I presume you are referring to those retired individuals living abroad). Yes, it sucks they left but if they have actually made a contribution to this country and happened to have paid SS themselves, they are due something in return, are they not ? All I'm saying is that I welcome the new citizens but I prefer you to take the legal route. Sure it may take longer but then again, perhaps you'll appreciate it that much more.
Well, my intent when I paid my taxes was NOT so some group abroad could see if blowfly's are edible..........or to buy gas to fly somebody from Sudan so they could feel all warm and fuzzy. I did expect most of it to stay in the US, because I don't give a about the Sudan OR Blowflys......but somebody across the street who may need help should get it, and be allowed the chance to pick themselves up.
Legal/illegal.....black/white......muslim or athiest.
Because at some point they all make SOME contribution to our country.
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutusTx
Well, my intent when I paid my taxes was NOT so some group abroad could see if blowfly's are edible..........or to buy gas to fly somebody from Sudan so they could feel all warm and fuzzy. I did expect most of it to stay in the US, because I don't give a about the Sudan OR Blowflys......but somebody across the street who may need help should get it, and be allowed the chance to pick themselves up.
Legal/illegal.....black/white......muslim or athiest.
Because at some point they all make SOME contribution to our country.
And this is your opinion which are very much entitled to. Some key points though:

1) You pay the taxes. The government decides how to coordinate the funds.

2) Your tax dollars wouldn't necessarily have to pay for the flights, I'm more than sure there are large, well-funded humanitarian aid agencies that would be more than happy to fit the bill should the United States allow for such a thing (doubtful).

3) Nothing wrong with wanting better for your family, it's human nature. But there are laws against illegally crossing our borders for reasons. Those reasons are more than apparent after 9/11.

4) If you are so willing to lend a helping hand to those in need, why wouldn't you be willing to help those that w/o your help or intervention are going to die? Foolish logic.

As you were...
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:32 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
And this is your opinion which are very much entitled to. Some key points though:

1) You pay the taxes. The government decides how to coordinate the funds.

2) Your tax dollars wouldn't necessarily have to pay for the flights, I'm more than sure there are large, well-funded humanitarian aid agencies that would be more than happy to fit the bill should the United States allow for such a thing (doubtful).

3) Nothing wrong with wanting better for your family, it's human nature. But there are laws against illegally crossing our borders for reasons. Those reasons are more than apparent after 9/11.

4) If you are so willing to lend a helping hand to those in need, why wouldn't you be willing to help those that w/o your help or intervention are going to die? Foolish logic.

As you were...

There you have it, the goverment is the culprit then.
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:54 PM   #75
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I heard a great comparison to put illegal immigration into a perspective we can all understand.

Would you be upset if someone came into your house and refused to leave and claimed they had the right to be there because their house wasn't as nice? Of course you would. This is exactly what illegal immigrants are doing. They come into our country and claim that they have a right to be here because their country isn't as nice.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:57 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
And this is your opinion which are very much entitled to. Some key points though:

1) You pay the taxes. The government decides how to coordinate the funds.

2) Your tax dollars wouldn't necessarily have to pay for the flights, I'm more than sure there are large, well-funded humanitarian aid agencies that would be more than happy to fit the bill should the United States allow for such a thing (doubtful).

3) Nothing wrong with wanting better for your family, it's human nature. But there are laws against illegally crossing our borders for reasons. Those reasons are more than apparent after 9/11.

4) If you are so willing to lend a helping hand to those in need, why wouldn't you be willing to help those that w/o your help or intervention are going to die? Foolish logic.

As you were...
Foolish logic......hmmmmmmm
There is a lot of that.....without a doubt.
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Old 12-05-2006, 04:32 PM   #77
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I heard a great comparison to put illegal immigration into a perspective we can all understand.

Would you be upset if someone came into your house and refused to leave and claimed they had the right to be there because their house wasn't as nice? Of course you would. This is exactly what illegal immigrants are doing. They come into our country and claim that they have a right to be here because their country isn't as nice.

Just my 2 cents.
isn't as nice? lol...
more like if a guy came in your house and said his house caved in on him
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Old 12-05-2006, 04:55 PM   #78
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Foolish logic......hmmmmmmm
There is a lot of that.....without a doubt.
Indeed
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Old 12-16-2006, 06:36 AM   #79
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The issue of immigration a very broad issue and you should define the specific point you are arguing before getting too out of hand.. there are actually about 5 different discussions going on here but they are all being lumped into the same topic, just like if I were to tell someone the chevy 350 motor was the most reliable motor ever made and they countered with "kia's are cheaper" those are two totally seperate issues and should be contained to two seperate conversations.

On immigration, even illegal immigration, you have many faucets with which to argue.

For example, you have the economical impact of supporting a work force with tax money, which does not contribute to the tax base. Think of it like this, you have a 3 gallon pot of soup in the kitchen, one person brings in water, another person brings in vegetables, another person brings in meat and another brings in seasoning and provides heat.. they are all involved in making soup, and they made enough soup to last them through the night, yet someone sneaks into their house without their permission, grabs a bowl and stands in line.. do these people have a right to be upset?


There are plenty of other issues as well, but the point is.. realise the issue is very complex, and discussing it should be restrained to specific scenario's or policies to keep things in order.
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:39 PM   #80
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Guys, everyone in this world wants to work and earn money for their families. There's nothing wrong with people sending money back to their families in their respective countries.

The USA allows a certain amount of people each year to come to this country and work (VISA). They work, earn money, then expire their terms and go home. These are skilled workers that undergo a lengthy process to be allowed this privilege. There's a reason why it's a lengthy process. We want the cream of the crop. The majority of the people coming here illegally either would not qualify for this privilege or have other reasons that they would be denied for. We don't have a need for unskilled workers in this country, which is what the majority of illegals tend to be.

Another thing that people don't realize its that it's the minorities that are mostly giving up their jobs for the illegals.

My opinions on this subject is based on the economic harm that illegals are causing the taxpayer. It's not based on sympathy or racial preference. Think with a clear head, people. Don't let emotions cloud your judgements.

FYI - Definitions of unskilled worker (before some of you get bent out of shape):
(a) an unskilled job is a job which requires, for its proper execution, hardly any formal education and/or training and/or experience;

(b) a worker in an unskilled job is a worker doing such a job, irrespective of their level of qualifications or competences (especially under conditions of high unemployment, a significant share of those occupying unskilled jobs may be 'overeducated' for them, or 'underemployed' ); and

(c) an unskilled worker is someone who has only the lowest level of qualifications or education (however defined).

Last edited by MadseasoN; 12-18-2006 at 07:52 PM.
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