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Old 12-06-2011, 09:43 AM   #21
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Quote:
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And I call bullshit on the 87-93 "runs the same" line.
I filled up with half tank of 87 before I realize it one time, and my tank avg went down like 4 mpg. Same weekly routine, 95% highway run to work (traveling downtown OUT to Katy)
YMMV
Two possible causes. One, your ECU is significantly changing your air/fuel mix to compensate for the lower octane and prevent pre-ignition. On high compression motors, it will result in a decrease in mileage.

Two, Lower octane fuel has a higher percentage of ethanol. The higher the ethanol content, the less energy is produced on combustion, so mileage decreases.

My money is on the first one.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I believe that motor retards timing based on knock sensors which is why it runs slightly poorly.
This, too.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post

And I call bullshit on the 87-93 "runs the same" line.
I filled up with half tank of 87 before I realize it one time, and my tank avg went down like 4 mpg. Same weekly routine, 95% highway run to work (traveling downtown OUT to Katy)
YMMV

Depends entirely on the vehicle. On a bike you wouldn't notice anything at all (provided you didn't get detonation). On a car that has knock sensors, the computer would the timing, and you might notice a change in economy. 4 mpg....I still find that hard to believe.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:46 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinball View Post
Two, Lower octane fuel has a higher percentage of ethanol. The higher the ethanol content, the less energy is produced on combustion, so mileage decreases.
This is incorrect. The limit is 10%, and all grades of fuel that are oxygenated have the full 10%. Also, Ethanol is 100 octane. So you could actually "get away with" using more of it to make 87 octane gasoline into a 93 octane fuel.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Depends entirely on the vehicle. On a bike you wouldn't notice anything at all (provided you didn't get detonation). On a car that has knock sensors, the computer would the timing, and you might notice a change in economy. 4 mpg....I still find that hard to believe.
My bike has a knock sensor too. I use premium as recommended but at high temps under light acceleration it can knock.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:47 AM   #26
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One third of a gallon remaining in the line? I don't believe that Wall Street answer unless they are talking about the old generation pumps. New pumps will only have an ounce or two in the line like grsa said.

But if I'm wrong I think I will start filling up my bike in 1/3 gallon increments. Wait for a pump to dispense premium, select regular and pump only 1/3 gallon and then repeat 8 more times at other pumps. I will be able to fill my 3 gallon tank with premium for the cost of regular. Will probably take me 30 minutes or so but wow I can save 50 cents. haha

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Old 12-06-2011, 09:50 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
My bike has a knock sensor too. I use premium as recommended but at high temps under light acceleration it can knock.
Interesting. This is actually the first I've heard of a bike with a knock sensor. The adaptability of motorcycle engine controls is primitive compared to cars. The difference being that cars don't rev to 18k rpms so they can process more info per ignition event.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Interesting. This is actually the first I've heard of a bike with a knock sensor. The adaptability of motorcycle engine controls is primitive compared to cars. The difference being that cars don't rev to 18k rpms so they can process more info per ignition event.
Read the Honda service manual. I think it's in the owner's manual too
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:54 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
This is incorrect. The limit is 10%, and all grades of fuel that are oxygenated have the full 10%. Also, Ethanol is 100 octane. So you could actually "get away with" using more of it to make 87 octane gasoline into a 93 octane fuel.
Oh, don't get me wrong...I fully understand the concept of ethanol and what it does, but octane has nothing to do with the energy produced on combustion. Ethanol produces fewer BTU's than gasoline, so when you mix the two, you lower the energy output upon combustion. Less energy = more required to do the same job.

Gasoline produces 114,000 BTU/Gal
E10 produces 111,836 BTU/Gal
E85 produces 81,800 BTU/Gal

Check out fueleconomy.gov and look at the mileage and annual fuel cost of flex fuel vehicles. The mileage decreases and fuel cost increases when run on E85.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
- Non-resonance knock sensor maintains optimum spark advance while constantly monitoring combustion performance during mid- to high-rpm operation.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #31
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anyone know if I can buy ethanol free gas in sealed containers?

Maybe the race gas distributor has something like this?
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:11 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Depends entirely on the vehicle. On a bike you wouldn't notice anything at all (provided you didn't get detonation). On a car that has knock sensors, the computer would the timing, and you might notice a change in economy. 4 mpg....I still find that hard to believe.
I think I did get 87 in my old Kawasaki one time, normal minor backfires, but that was about it.
Should of had a disclaimer I guess on the car though.
Changing road/weather conditions are known variables.
Usually I'm within 1-2mpg +/- of 29.5mpg avg per fill-up.
Got 30 on one tank, then the "87ish" tank hit 26.
Not that hard to believe if I was traveling into wind a day or two...
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:13 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Right, there is no benefit for using higher octane than what is recommended, but if you use lower than what's recommended you could potentially damage the engine.
That's why they stated at the end of the article to use what the manufacturer recommends. They stated that at the high revs bikes run at, a simple knock could become damaging very quickly. The question had been asked to them from a reader who accidentally filled up with 87 as opposed to 93 and wanted to know if it would damage his bike.

On a full fill up of say 3.5 gallons of 93, the dilution amount caused by, at most, .5 gallons probably wouldn't cause enough octane change to be of concern. IMO.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #34
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anyone know if I can buy ethanol free gas in sealed containers?

Maybe the race gas distributor has something like this?
i've heard about can's of ethanol free gas being sold for lawn gear use. also, may want to try and call some marinas.

i feel bad when my stihl chain saw and trimmer sit with some fuel in the lines. i'm a bad gas powered tool owner.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:24 AM   #35
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i've heard about can's of ethanol free gas being sold for lawn gear use. also, may want to try and call some marinas.

i feel bad when my stihl chain saw and trimmer sit with some fuel in the lines. i'm a bad gas powered tool owner.
^^^This...just make sure you don't get premixed gas. Not sure if it's still available, but not too long ago you could get ethanol free gas at the pumps around Beaumont and in Matagorda County.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinball View Post
Oh, don't get me wrong...I fully understand the concept of ethanol and what it does, but octane has nothing to do with the energy produced on combustion. Ethanol produces fewer BTU's than gasoline, so when you mix the two, you lower the energy output upon combustion. Less energy = more required to do the same job.

Gasoline produces 114,000 BTU/Gal
E10 produces 111,836 BTU/Gal
E85 produces 81,800 BTU/Gal

Check out fueleconomy.gov and look at the mileage and annual fuel cost of flex fuel vehicles. The mileage decreases and fuel cost increases when run on E85.
You're still incorrect on a fuel having a higher percentage of ethanol. The max is 10%.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
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They stated that at the high revs bikes run at, a simple knock could become damaging very quickly.
The funny thing is that the exact opposite is actually the case: because of the higher revs there's a smaller window in time for knock to occur, and an even smaller window still for it to be damaging.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:45 AM   #38
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So basically what everyone is saying is dont be the first to fill up on a group ride? Got it!
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:51 AM   #39
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How many times do we need to discuss the octane? Geez
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:57 AM   #40
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I think we just like to rant about stuff. LOL
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