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Old 11-16-2006, 01:40 AM   #1
Radar
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WHERE TO LOOK WHEN CORNERING

I've been reading the thread about gixxerbills hospital bill from his get off in turn 7 @TWS (Texas World Speedway), and it seems the advice given to him is to look as far through the corner as you can.

First I'll offer my 2 cent "opinion". I don't believe this is correct. You must learn to use your eyes, and this involves moving them. I have been flying for over 32 years, and teaching flying for many years. The hardest thing to convey to new students is how to properly use their eyes when learning to land. The hard part is where to look to judge your height above the runway. Look too far down the runway and you'll stop flying too high above the pavement resulting in a hard fall to ground. Look too close and you'll fly the plane right into the ground and never realize the ground is coming at you till you've hit. I tell students you all have good eyes, and we as humans are all created reasonably equal - the difference is how we USE our eyes - where we look with them, and for how long. Same applies to riding motorcylces.

If you always look as far through the corner as you can see, you will never see - braking points - turn in points - apexes - exit cones - slower traffic - debris on the track - slower riders, etc etc.

Generally speaking - looking through the corner is good advice, however you must keep you eyes working (moving).

When you are exiting the chicane @TWS (Texas World Speedway) it does not do you any good to look all the way to the end of the front straight @ the entry to turn 1. That is simply looking too far ahead. When you are entering turn 1 you can see all the way to turn 4, not where you should be looking. I know those are extreme examples, but they are used to make a point.

Now, enough of my "opinions", now for some Quotes from a couple of Sport /High Performance books:

From "Total Control" by Lee Parks Chapter 7: Vision He says - Look far through the corners, but do not fixate, of course "before" your look through the turn, you must first decide where the turning point will be. this requires a quick burst of spotlight vision, followed by a switch to the floodlight view through the corner. He quotes Keith Code as liking to call this visual quick - change the "two step".

From "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch forward by Kenny Roberts

Chapter 3: The Eyes Have It This is a lengthy chapter , and I can't cover it all in this thread, but the emphasis is on :KEEP YOUR EYES MOVING - Here is one paragraph on keeping your eyes moving: Mastering this tecnique requires shifting your eyes from a particular section of road or even a section of a corner, you will be looking at a spot at the corner entrance, probably where you think it's a good place to turn. Leave your eyes on that spot too long, however, and the rest of the corner will either surprise you or rush you. Move your eyes off that entrance point and up into the corner, looking for your apex point, or the point at which you come closest to the edge of your lane. As you approach that spot, rip your eyes up again to the exit. Move them. Jump them off anything that threatens to grab your attention.

Summarizing, I sure don't think Bill set out that morning to hit the apex of turn 7, just as many of you have encountered flying commercially (and otherwise) very experienced airline captains make really bad landings from time to time. IT'S ALL IN THE EYES GUYS (AND GALS).

OK - Flame Away!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:40 AM   #2
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i dont know. i usually just look where i want to go and skip the classes on apex's and breaking markers cuz that confuses me. just let me ride and follow sommebody and im ok. maybe its just me but all this textbook/classroom stuff only hinders my ability to learn.
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:35 AM   #3
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While I like to follow someone I would also like to understand the proper mechanics and theory of finding that ever elusive "perfect line".
Class room instruction for me would be quite helpful.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:04 AM   #4
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Nice post!

I first felt bad for constantly moving my eyes around and I still do but I think you hit a good point.

At turn 6 I actually looked too far once and got way on the inside of the apex and already felt the little gravel/grass on the tire. As gixxerbill noted when he described it as 'hit the curb'.

After that incident I decided to not look THAT far ahead and adjust the reference points to my speed. Since I was Miss slowpoke out there, I was looking for reference points like I was hauling 110mph through those turns. Once I adjusted my points and kept the apex and the asphalt in the 'corner of my eye', it worked much better.

The one thing I will do when my semester is over is hit the three streetbike riding books I got. Twist of the Wrist I and II and Total Control.

Thanks for bringing up this great topic.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:20 AM   #5
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I was one of the ones who posted about looking ahead in GixxerBill's thread. I was not implying that you should always be looking 100 ft (or whatever length) ahead of you regardless of the situation, turn, etc. All I was saying is that when you are in the turn you shouldn't be looking that close in front of you. Obviously moving your eyes is always the best. It's not as black and white as "always looking as far ahead as you possibly can."
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:30 AM   #6
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yall read to much. go out there and freakin ride, your eyes know where they need to be. if yall stopped thinkin about this kinda while your on the track and pay attention to what your bike is doin underneath you, your lap times will go down and if you can feel what the bike is doin you wont crash as much
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeo36
yall read to much. go out there and freakin ride, your eyes know where they need to be. if yall stopped thinkin about this kinda while your on the track and pay attention to what your bike is doin underneath you, your lap times will go down and if you can feel what the bike is doin you wont crash as much
I disagree. Theory and Practise, especially in the beginner levels, should always be combined. If I hadn't taken the LSTD class and was told in one session to only concentrate on reference points, I would've done a lot worse at the end of the day than I did.

You may be talking to experienced riders but for beginners, reading and learning and then 'thinking about that stuff while riding' is necessary.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:20 AM   #8
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Roger that!^^^ Get me to the track!!!!!!
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Old 11-16-2006, 12:02 PM   #9
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Good post Radar. I do think(after riding that turn again) I was looking to far into the corner instead of at the apex where the curb is. I think keeping your eyes moving is the key. And as far as learn by riding, Radar almost goes to every track day there is and a very accomplished rider and I have been to numerous ones too(before I crashed). I just think that after a crash you should analyze what happened to try to prevent it from happening again. Because CRASHING SUCKS and is depressing , because you are messed up and so is you bike which = no riding. And that really sux.

Last edited by gixxerbill; 11-16-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 11-16-2006, 12:20 PM   #10
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Good post, I constantly move my eye's I guess maybe it's something I do without thinking maybe from driving a truck for so long.
I was thinking that maybe I was doing something wrong when I kept hearing people say look through the corner, because I was looking back and forth all the time and not staying focused on anything too far ahead maybe 10ft to 300 ft.
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Old 11-16-2006, 04:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arturo3rd
i dont know. i usually just look where i want to go and skip the classes on apex's and breaking markers cuz that confuses me. just let me ride and follow sommebody and im ok. maybe its just me but all this textbook/classroom stuff only hinders my ability to learn.
I thought that I was the only one having this learning disability. Classroom instructions is like having your parents tell you this and that, goes in from one ear and out the others.
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:10 PM   #12
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An answer, no I cant, hence wont give. But an input, certainly yes I can, hence would.:icon_bigg

A lesser experienced guy will have to break it down into pieces. Too many inputs to process, limited processing capability. From enterting the corner to exiting the corner ( standing straight TO standing straight time), you take it in phases. notice brake markers, start braking, start looking into the corner, start looking thru the corner, etc etc. You will learn with experience that if you start looking THRU before a certain point in the turning process, it just disorients u and does nothing else, becuase while completing that phase, you are FORGETING some phases that should have been completed before that.

Now, another kind of guy, guy who is a level above, naturally, or by virtue of experience, can afford to miss some phases. Because he know those phases. he JUST KNOWS THEM! A Rossi or Ty I dont think needs to keep looking where is his brake marker in TWS (Texas World Speedway) turn 1. he just knows it when he reaches there. SO he can afford to miss some phases and directly go to next one. And I will leave it at this.

Second, somebody said they almost hit the curb while trying to look thru. Thats is bcos you are getting it right teechinically to look far ahead. but for one, u r looking MAYBE too far ahead. and second, u hv taken the body position and line to go fast, but u r stilll scared to go fast cos u still dont belive u can do that. Thats when that hiting the curb thing generally occurs. Will usually be ur 3-5th track day kinds.

But havin said that, TWS (Texas World Speedway) turn 7 is different from other turns, cos apex is not visible early on, but "where u wanna go part" after the apex is visible easy (it high ). BUt its such a fast turn that u r actually carrying less speed then u should be for that particular line, and hence u tend to go hit curb. You have to be very quick to get THE right line there. its better to keep it little wide, and little safe, till the time u r VERY quick!
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:14 PM   #13
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There are plenty of fundemental things that are helpful to learn off the track and a lifetime of things that have to be learned on the track. Understanding that one may need the aid of brake markers, turn in markers, apex markers, exit markers and other reference points is valuable knowledge and understanding how to look through these things at high speeds is mandatory. But, you only pick that up as you make laps. Just go out and have fun and ask the people passing you questions after your session. Just remember that you are going to ask a hundred different people the questions and will get a hundred different answers. Putting it together in a way that works for your is what comes with experience. Have Fun!
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:26 PM   #14
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Another thing to think about and it was mentioned to some degree already. Learn to tune into the bike by hearing and feeling what it is telling you about the track. Understanding there are reference points and lines to get around the track is great but, if you put your bike on that line and hit a few bumps near the apex (Cresson) you are not going to be a happy camper. Also for me personally I like listening to the bike... it creates a sort of rhythm when things start flowing right. As that rhythm gets consistant you start running consistant lap times and then you can start to make more adjustments in your routine to gain ground on the time.
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Old 11-16-2006, 06:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeo36
yall read to much. go out there and freakin ride, your eyes know where they need to be. if yall stopped thinkin about this kinda while your on the track and pay attention to what your bike is doin underneath you, your lap times will go down and if you can feel what the bike is doin you wont crash as much
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Old 11-16-2006, 06:08 PM   #16
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I've turned a lap or two, and I can tell you that reading about riding helps. I don't take it all at face value though. Some things are applicable for my riding style & some things are not. I think reading & lookng at your riding objectively is a good way to get faster. Try not to change your riding style too much. At first you may need to adjust things to get a good "style" or technique going. Once you haved something that feels good & natural, just twick it a little. Don't change much, that way if you start doing something that feels wrong you know what it is & you can revert back to what you were doing.

As far as looking goes, My eyes move around alot. Especially at trackdays. Racing is little different as I know where I want to go and everything seems to flow. I'm not concerned about a close pass or even touching.

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Old 11-16-2006, 09:00 PM   #17
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Not everyone learns the same. Some people learn well with books and or text. Some learn better with hands on. I try not to open my eyes when I ride.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:41 PM   #18
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+1 Gabe

People that say all this thinkin about it is just go ride are IMO
forgetting that different people learn in different ways. I also think it is a little irresponsible to say, Aww don't f***ing think about it just do it! There are those who will hear those kind of phrases and then go do somethin stoopid.
I say if you are a person that learns best by asking questions and then going hands on then go for it. If you learn better by reading and thinking then do that.
There have been some studies that show that visualization can improve athletes performance more than actual practice. So do what works for you and try a little of everything until you achieve what your working towards (lower lap times, perfect lines or flatter abs)
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Not everyone learns the same. Some people learn well with books and or text. Some learn better with hands on. I try not to open my eyes when I ride. -Gabe
That is the best advice ever!
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
People that say all this thinkin about it is just go ride are IMO
forgetting that different people learn in different ways. I also think it is a little irresponsible to say, Aww don't f***ing think about it just do it! There are those who will hear those kind of phrases and then go do somethin stoopid.
I say if you are a person that learns best by asking questions and then going hands on then go for it. If you learn better by reading and thinking then do that.
There have been some studies that show that visualization can improve athletes performance more than actual practice. So do what works for you and try a little of everything until you achieve what your working towards (lower lap times, perfect lines or flatter abs)
i dont have a problem with questions, if someone asked the question where should your eyes be looking, umm yea they should be lookin at what your goin towards if thats around the corner then thats where you look, that includes bikes braking markers, some one layin on the track naked, whatever, if its in front of you look at. dont stare at one thing, you need to be lookin at the bigger picture, so you know what to do when it comes. oh and i encourage everyone to ask questions. it helps people to learn but i also am a firm believer in the more you ride and the more your focused on riding and what the bike is doing that will help you out more in the long run.
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