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Old 10-25-2011, 07:55 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
How many times does he have to say the same thing before you get it?
In his defense I get what he's driving at. He wants definitive proof that crashing made me faster. I can't 100% provide that. It's an argument of experiences and ideals. There is no 100% on any side of that argument.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:17 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
In his defense I get what he's driving at. He wants definitive proof that crashing made me faster. I can't 100% provide that. It's an argument of experiences and ideals. There is no 100% on any side of that argument.

Sometimes, you just have to take it on faith...
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:40 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
In his defense I get what he's driving at. He wants definitive proof that crashing made me faster. I can't 100% provide that. It's an argument of experiences and ideals. There is no 100% on any side of that argument.
Thank You, I suppose

IF you understand WHAT made you crash, then that experiences can be used to help correct a problem, but I contend that most riders have "no idea" why they crashed, when they did.

Safety is more important that fast!
to go out to the track with THAT attitude IMO is paramount!

I see too many people crashing, because they want to go fast, without actually knowing HOW to go fast, or what will actually make them faster.

let me describe an example of the achievement that IM trying to portray...(NOT me)
with only 1 major (track day) and 4 very minor (race) crashes, in 3years of racing...
to achieve these 2010 novice season results..
ss A- Champion
ss B & C -2nd
sb A & C- Champion
sb B -2nd
Formula 1- Champion

these results were accomplished with much care, proper instruction and guidance, avoiding, as much as possible, the consequences of learning "the hard way".

my intention is to say that crashing does NOT make you faster!
but is the result of an error, and using the "hard way" as an instructional method is foolhardy and dangerous.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:44 AM   #84
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Perhaps this is pointless, but I think this thread has revealed two reasonable positions:

1) You don't have to crash to go fast. You can be smooth, in control, and over time, while staying within your limits, get faster;

and

2) To get faster requires spending a huge amount of time on the track exploring the limits of your own reaction times, your control inputs, and the nature and quality of tires, suspension, and track conditions. Do this enough and you will probably go down. This teaches you things.

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying: "go fast, take chances, crash a lot, and you will always be faster than a guy who doesn't crash." No one crashes because it is fun. It sucks, is expensive, and can be dangerous. But for many (and I will say here, for most) there will be crashes on the way to improvement. Given that, I say let's learn from our mistakes.

Last edited by unswift; 10-25-2011 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:54 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistMarty View Post
my intention is to say that crashing does NOT make you faster!
but is the result of an error, and using the "hard way" as an instructional method is foolhardy and dangerous.
Crashing is a common reality for the vast majority of track riders. You have limited options once a crash has happened. Learn from it and attempt to avoid that same mistake in the future or potentially doom yourself to repeat it. That is how crashing has allowed me to go faster. It has nothing to do with the hard way or easy way and going fast on a track can be considered foolhardy and dangerous no matter how good you are.

I'm sure every rider out there would love to achieve progression to race times without ever wrecking. I know I would. Unfortunately it's not what happens for most. Mistakes are made. Every lesson is valuable.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:57 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unswift View Post
Perhaps this is pointless, but I think this thread has revealed two reasonable positions:

1) You don't have to crash to go fast. You can be smooth, in control, and over time, while staying within your limits, get faster;

and

2) To get faster requires spending a huge amount of time on the track exploring the limits of your own reaction times, your control inputs, and the nature and quality of tires, suspension, and track conditions. Do this enough and you will probably go down. This teaches you things.

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying: "go fast, take chances, crash a lot, and you will always be faster than a guy who doesn't crash." No one crashes because it is fun. It sucks, is expensive, and can be dangerous. But for many (and I will say here, for most) there will be crashes on the way to improvement. Given that, I say let's learn from our mistakes.
I 100% agree. I prefer to be very realistic about the likelihood that I will wreck again. I don't want to, but I'm prepared to run the risk.


I'd still like to have that 1/2" of collarbone back from my first wreck though.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:03 AM   #87
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Keith Code said in one of his books, if you are not willing to crash, do not ride....
it was the hardest line in the book for me to digest...
I have not crashed yet, only 3 track days, and I am one slow old SOB... but I do have a desire to get faster....and a couple of times I have scared the out of myself and made some mistakes that could have taken me down... I got lucky and recovered... but if I had been going faster, leaning more, maybe I would have made the slide ... I have visited the infield.. I have gone dirt biking in the middle of a turn... and while I did not go down, while I did not "crash", i made a mistake the same as if I had crashed... I wish I had not made those mistakes, but I did... so I thought about those mistakes, evaluated to the best of my ability, what I had done, what was the actual mistake and not just the result of the mistake... I rode the infiend, but what choices did I make that put me there.... so yes, I learned from the mistake... well, not really the mistake itself, but the evaluation of that series of events that was the mistake... the choping of the throttle, the improper application of the brake... the looking where I was going instead of where I wanted to go...target fixation to the point that once i made the mistake I was looking to see how I was going to save myself instead of how to finish the turn... and had I tried to finish the turn instead of saving my self, I probably would have done both...
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:07 AM   #88
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In my head, it has to take longer, much longer, to "explore the limits" if you're gradually creeping up to them as opposed to going past them.

I can only look to personal experience: I have never crashed at a trackday, and after 5 years of no-crash days I'm slightly slower than the guys in my track group that have less than half the amount of seat time, but have all crashed.

Crashing should never be the goal, but if your goal is to get fast as quickly as is possible, its probably going to happen along the way.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:09 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obed View Post
Keith Code said in one of his books, if you are not willing to crash, do not ride....
it was the hardest line in the book for me to digest...
I have not crashed yet, only 3 track days, and I am one slow old SOB... but I do have a desire to get faster....and a couple of times I have scared the out of myself and made some mistakes that could have taken me down... I got lucky and recovered... but if I had been going faster, leaning more, maybe I would have made the slide ... I have visited the infield.. I have gone dirt biking in the middle of a turn... and while I did not go down, while I did not "crash", i made a mistake the same as if I had crashed... I wish I had not made those mistakes, but I did... so I thought about those mistakes, evaluated to the best of my ability, what I had done, what was the actual mistake and not just the result of the mistake... I rode the infiend, but what choices did I make that put me there.... so yes, I learned from the mistake... well, not really the mistake itself, but the evaluation of that series of events that was the mistake... the choping of the throttle, the improper application of the brake... the looking where I was going instead of where I wanted to go...target fixation to the point that once i made the mistake I was looking to see how I was going to save myself instead of how to finish the turn... and had I tried to finish the turn instead of saving my self, I probably would have done both...
At your age wrecking may not be of any benefit. Plus it'll probably look like the wind trying to fold a runaway lawn chair.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:25 AM   #90
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Crashing is a common reality for the vast majority of track riders. You have limited options once a crash has happened. Learn from it and attempt to avoid that same mistake in the future or potentially doom yourself to repeat it. That is how crashing has allowed me to go faster. It has nothing to do with the hard way or easy way and going fast on a track can be considered foolhardy and dangerous no matter how good you are.

I'm sure every rider out there would love to achieve progression to race times without ever wrecking. I know I would. Unfortunately it's not what happens for most. Mistakes are made. Every lesson is valuable.
this is the problem, using the crash as the learning tool

I think learning HOW to go fast, the track is the safest place!
but without quality instruction, without measurement and evaluation the results are slow and minimal at best.

just pushing your own comfort zone is NOT necessarily improving,
training is required, and for proper training you need instruction and the more qualified the instructor the better possibility for positive results.

Im not trying to say that crashing isnt going to happen, what Im trying to say is crashing will NOT make you faster!

if you really want to learn to go fast, you MUST have knowledgeable instruction on HOW to go fast.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistMarty View Post
this is the problem, using the crash as the learning tool

I think learning HOW to go fast, the track is the safest place!
but without quality instruction, without measurement and evaluation the results are slow and minimal at best.

just pushing your own comfort zone is NOT necessarily improving,
training is required, and for proper training you need instruction and the more qualified the instructor the better possibility for positive results.

Im not trying to say that crashing isnt going to happen, what Im trying to say is crashing will NOT make you faster!

if you really want to learn to go fast, you MUST have knowledgeable instruction on HOW to go fast.

Plenty of people go to CSS, STAR, and other academies, and are still slow. instruction isn't the end all-be all of getting faster. The point that everyone is making is that if you're actually exploring limits, crashing happens...so learn from it.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:51 AM   #92
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Quote:
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At your age wrecking may not be of any benefit. Plus it'll probably look like the wind trying to fold a runaway lawn chair.
true and who the is going to learn anything watching a lawn chair fold itself...
I do not think the question the OP asked can ever be answered to anyones satisfaction...I do not want to crash, but the possibility of that happening exists everytime you ride, if it has to happen, I do indeed want to learn all I can from it...
at every track day I have been to, someone crashed, sad but true.... thank none of those people were injured so badly that they died or ended their ability to get back out there and do it again (but not crash I hope), and at each of those events I thought about the things I witnessed and asked questions of folks who saw what i did not...when my turn came to be on the track again... as I passed the spots where they went down, I thought about what i saw and how it could have happened....I was not being morbid, I was wanting to understand what happended, what the sequence of events were, and how I might avoid doing the same thing... I wished they had not gone down, I wished they had not been injured, but if it had to happen, something good should come from it, the learning experience is the only good i can see... and I try to take advantage of that...
but if they or I just go down and we do not get to an understanding of what caused the crash, then nothing is learned, nothing is gained... understanding what happened can be a very valuable tool...but I am not looking to do down so I can learn...
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:53 AM   #93
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Quote:
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that's wrong.


Back to topic, what is consider fast? Is level2 fast, level3, or expert fast? I remembered when I was in level 1, level 2 guys seem fast and level 3 guys are experts.
Agreed. I started doing track days in September of last year. Then my next one was in May of this year. I remember thinking, its going to take me years to get into level 2...and I doubt I'll ever make it to level 3...haha. Last month I had my first track day in level 3. I still don't consider myself fast though. I think 1:55 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) or 1:45 at MSRH is considered fast on a 600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
In my head, it has to take longer, much longer, to "explore the limits" if you're gradually creeping up to them as opposed to going past them.

I can only look to personal experience: I have never crashed at a trackday, and after 5 years of no-crash days I'm slightly slower than the guys in my track group that have less than half the amount of seat time, but have all crashed.

Crashing should never be the goal, but if your goal is to get fast as quickly as is possible, its probably going to happen along the way.
There's a lot of truth in this. A friend of mine started track days around the same time I did. Granted, he's done more than I have, but he currently has a good 7 seconds on me at TWS (Texas World Speedway). He's crashed 3x, I havent (ever). I'm finally getting to the point (running 2:03s at TWS (Texas World Speedway)) where...and I'm trying to think of how to word this correctly...

...The margin of error from the difference between the EXTRA potential my bike/tires/stock suspension has might not overcome my LACK of skill (and making mistakes) is getting small enough to where a small mistake on my part is going to send me down since my bike will not be able to recover from it like it was able to before (hopefully that makes sense)

And in a sense, I've hit a block because of that. I've had several friends go down recently, all of which are right around my pace. I'd rather stay at my pace than get faster and go down. That just comes down to personality. I'm very competitive, but not at the expense of my $10,000 motorcycle being totaled...lol. Maybe that was my first mistake. Buying a brand new bike and then eventually taking it to the track...instead of buying a cheap track bike.

Maybe once my current bike is paid off (c'mon May!) and I get another street bike, I'll allow myself to push harder. Until then, I'll keep pushing myself a little bit at a time and using the money I save from not crashing to do more track days!
-Cody
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:56 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistMarty View Post
this is the problem, using the crash as the learning tool

I think learning HOW to go fast, the track is the safest place!
but without quality instruction, without measurement and evaluation the results are slow and minimal at best.

just pushing your own comfort zone is NOT necessarily improving,
training is required, and for proper training you need instruction and the more qualified the instructor the better possibility for positive results.

Im not trying to say that crashing isnt going to happen, what Im trying to say is crashing will NOT make you faster!

if you really want to learn to go fast, you MUST have knowledgeable instruction on HOW to go fast.
You're attempting to separate the issues to demonstrate that they are somehow contradictory. I wish it were that simple, but in my experience it hasn't been.

What has your personal experience been with trackday riding or racing and the instruction you were provided? You keep speaking of proper instruction. What instructors have you dealt with and what would you say it about them that makes their teaching proper?

I've been under the tutelage of most of the Fastline staff at this point including Gonzo and Brandon. In my opinion they're all fantastic teachers. I would hope that me wrecking was in no way a reflection of their teachings. That's like blaming the artist for crappy clay. Those guys are top notch. My ability to replicate their example is somewhat lacking though.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:07 AM   #95
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you make a good point, or at least ask a good question...just don't know if we will be allowed to answer it... sponsorship issues and all...
but what is good instruction... what makes for a good instructor...
a guy could be one of the most skilled riders around, but may not be good at instructing others... or he could be a good instructor but have too many people to watch at any given trackday, so the students do not have the opportunity to learn from him, not enough time...not enough personal attention...but I do believe that good instruction is a very valuable tool...
and I have been blessed to have some good instruction and instructors who cared... no issues I have are a result of poor instruction they can only do so much, it takes a little more to get thru to this old man than it does some of the younger folks who have not had so many years to learn bad habits...
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:14 AM   #96
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There's also the matter of how the instructor relays his information. What works for one student doesn't work for another. I always keep that in mind before I get frustrated with anyone trying to teach me something.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:39 AM   #97
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There's also the matter of how the instructor relays his information. What works for one student doesn't work for another. I always keep that in mind before I get frustrated with anyone trying to teach me something.
true... In my three track days I have worked with 5 different instructors...
two I look forward to working with again, and one I would like to have the opportunity to work with when he did not have 12 or more students he is trying to work with...I have not had a single instructor that i thought was a bad instructor, but I did have a couple that I did not think their style fit my learning style/ability.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:54 AM   #98
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You're attempting to separate the issues to demonstrate that they are somehow contradictory. I wish it were that simple, but in my experience it hasn't been.
I dont believe so

What has your personal experience been with trackday riding or racing and the instruction you were provided?
I have found the better the instructor the better the results

You keep speaking of proper instruction. What instructors have you dealt with and what would you say it about them that makes their teaching proper?
Proper instruction comes from those who have achieved recognition of excellent in their various fields of expertise, and their experience and knowledge along with their ability to convey that knowledge is what makes their teaching proper

I've been under the tutelage of most of the Fastline staff at this point including Gonzo and Brandon. In my opinion they're all fantastic teachers. I would hope that me wrecking was in no way a reflection of their teachings. That's like blaming the artist for crappy clay. Those guys are top notch. My ability to replicate their example is somewhat lacking though.
I would think an educated, person such as yourself would understand the benefits of quality instruction. Which IMO should facilitate learning and inspire an individual, as well as protecting the student from harm (mistakes).


and..
an "excellent" artist would NOT use crappy clay for HIS project.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:57 AM   #99
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:10 AM   #100
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Dunno about you guys but I'm gonna start wrecking more often.
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