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Old 10-24-2011, 06:21 AM   #41
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I've crashed twice. Didn't help me go any faster.

I have improved over the time I've been doing TD's, mostly just better control by taking small bites at more speed and harder braking to get into more challenging corner situations. I'm still very slow and I could definitely take bigger bites by accepting some more risk to speed up my learning process but I'm happy with finding that experience slowly and keeping myself out of too much new territory while I still have a lot of fun at the track.

Depends on how fast you want to learn I suppose.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:48 AM   #42
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AJ Flores hasn't crashed...and he's fast.

Last weekend he had 2 3rd places, a 6th place (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th were on liter bikes...AJ is on a 600), a 5th (again, 2nd & 4th were on 1000s). He was running 51's at TWS (Texas World Speedway) this race weekend.

I also thought I remembered hearing about a guy in the 70s or 80s that raced in a pretty high level organization (like AMA) and never wrecked...but I dont remember who it was and cant find it online.
-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
AJ Flores hasn't crashed...and he's fast.

Last weekend he had 2 3rd places, a 6th place (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th were on liter bikes...AJ is on a 600), a 5th (again, 2nd & 4th were on 1000s). He was running 51's at TWS (Texas World Speedway) this race weekend.

I also thought I remembered hearing about a guy in the 70s or 80s that raced in a pretty high level organization (like AMA) and never wrecked...but I dont remember who it was and cant find it online.
-Cody

So we have AJ and some guy in the 80s? I'm not going to try and prove one way or the other what it takes to go faster, but doesn't it seem like the more unlikely method if your proof is two guys out of many?
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:19 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exalted512 View Post
AJ Flores hasn't crashed...and he's fast.
So this is Iceman vs. Maverick here.

Tony has given us the fast guy who crashes perspective (BTW I'm closer to Tony's plan: 6 crashes in year one - learned something every time, and like a real novice, I'm still getting faster every time out).

Since we can all agree that AJ is fast, it would be nice if he weighed in on this topic.

What say you AJ? In your heart of hearts do you think if you had a little more crazy in you would be even faster than you are now?
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:08 PM   #45
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there is an adage...
"a fool learns from is own mistakes
and a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"

or something like that

IMO
proper equipment, proper training, step by step progression with quality instruction, all play an important role in achieving positive results.

Quality instruction is VERY important along with the proper equipment. There is NO secret formula, but I feel "comfort and confidence" plays a very important role also.

To become faster requires practice, more practice, but practice alone will not achieve the best results, though practice with quality instruction and guidance can help tremendously.

crashing IMO can be VERY detrimental to progression due to the mental and physical consequences.

also understanding tire pressures as well as the suspension's relationship to the tires is a science that baffle many riders.

crashing is a result of mistakes,
to go faster, you must eliminate mistakes.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:15 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unswift View Post
So this is Iceman vs. Maverick here.

Tony has given us the fast guy who crashes perspective (BTW I'm closer to Tony's plan: 6 crashes in year one - learned something every time, and like a real novice, I'm still getting faster every time out).

Since we can all agree that AJ is fast, it would be nice if he weighed in on this topic.

What say you AJ? In your heart of hearts do you think if you had a little more crazy in you would be even faster than you are now?
Crashing is part of the sport, but most if not all crashes come from mistakes (human error) and not equipment failure. The way I see it is, why do you have to experience it first hand to learn from a crash? Why can you not learn from other peoples mistakes? I'm a student of the sport. I watch videos when I can and learn from them, especially crashing videos. I'll go into detail if you want but I could be here for hours. I'll tell you guys one thing though... I live by this "stay on de line"
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:26 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistMarty View Post
there is an adage...
"a fool learns from is own mistakes
and a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"

or something like that

IMO
proper equipment, proper training, step by step progression with quality instruction, all play an important role in achieving positive results.

Quality instruction is VERY important along with the proper equipment. There is NO secret formula, but I feel "comfort and confidence" plays a very important role also.

To become faster requires practice, more practice, but practice alone will not achieve the best results, though practice with quality instruction and guidance can help tremendously.

crashing IMO can be VERY detrimental to progression due to the mental and physical consequences.

also understanding tire pressures as well as the suspension's relationship to the tires is a science that baffle many riders.

crashing is a result of mistakes,
to go faster, you must eliminate mistakes.
Hit the nail on the head! I'll elaborate more on the practice w/ quality instruction. It makes my head spin when I hear instructors say "you look good, you just need to hang off the bike more, brake later, and get on the gas sooner" but yet their student is 5-8ft off of the line. I believe line study needs to be drilled and the foundation of open track day practice.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 956 View Post
Hit the nail on the head! I'll elaborate more on the practice w/ quality instruction. It makes my head spin when I hear instructors say "you look good, you just need to hang off the bike more, brake later, and get on the gas sooner" but yet their student is 5-8ft off of the line. I believe line study needs to be drilled and the foundation of open track day practice.
YES,
Lines are so very important!
only way to get a good drive out! is a good line in!
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
So we have AJ and some guy in the 80s? I'm not going to try and prove one way or the other what it takes to go faster, but doesn't it seem like the more unlikely method if your proof is two guys out of many?
Well, like someone else mentioned...its typically not a mechanical limit that people hit when they crash, its human error.

So while you may learn something every time you crash, 99 times out of 100 its not, 'my tires cant carry enough speed through this area'...its 'i need to lean off more so I dont lever myself on my case covers' or 'i should have had my front suspension serviced before i hit 30k miles' or some other HUMAN error.

You dont have to learn from your own mistakes...learn from others.

And of course...some luck never hurts.
-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:59 PM   #50
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I can say for me, wrecking would make me slower from a mental block I'd develop. I take turn 10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) wide and T6 slow because of issues I had on my first TD over a year ago. I'm running 2:03s at TWS (Texas World Speedway). I've never even crashed, just had a run off in T6 and had my cold tires slip in T10 in a little bump.

Not even counting how expensive crashing can be. At best, you're out money for a broken shift lever, at worse, you've got a totaled bike and a $10,000 ambulance ride before you even get to the ER.

But not everything is always human error (or at least not your human error). I've seen people go down because of coolant from another bike...and i've seen people go down because they got hit by another rider.
-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:11 PM   #51
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You dont have to learn from your own mistakes...learn from others.
Here in Texas I grew up hearing a saying: "Everyone has to kill their own snakes."

I am a student of the sport, on TV, in print, and more importantly, on the track. I try to learn everywhere and anywhere. But it is all well and good to hear Keith Code lecture on the importance of mid-corner throttle control, and still another to explore that limit yourself at TWS (Texas World Speedway) in turn 3 where you are just so happy to be flying around there on a good bike that you try to squeeze just a little too much out of a tire that hasn't seen it's right side on the pavement since turn 13, and isn't ready for that much squeeze at full lean. So that was my last crash, and my first directly attributable to throttle control. I thought I was smooth enough, but apparently not enough for my tire/suspension/pace/lean angle/track condition, etc.

I can write about it here, and you can read about it, but you will still never know what it felt like to have the hand on the throttle, at that moment, at that pace and lean angle, when things went wrong. My point is, you will never learn as much as me from my mistakes. But you're right to try.

Last edited by unswift; 10-24-2011 at 02:12 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #52
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Well, like someone else mentioned...its typically not a mechanical limit that people hit when they crash, its human error.

So while you may learn something every time you crash, 99 times out of 100 its not, 'my tires cant carry enough speed through this area'...its 'i need to lean off more so I dont lever myself on my case covers' or 'i should have had my front suspension serviced before i hit 30k miles' or some other HUMAN error.

You dont have to learn from your own mistakes...learn from others.

And of course...some luck never hurts.
-Cody
I understand all of that. I also understand that there is feedback from the bike that I learned first hand that I could never have experienced watching a video. I know the limits of all three of my bikes. I learned them all the hard way. I know the warning signs of when I'm pushing the bike past some limit. Whether it be tires, suspension, track, or rider; the bike gives me feedback on all of those things. The only reason I know where the limits that feedback is describing are at is because I've sailed past them.

I'm not advocating crashing. I'm just pointing out the reality for most of us. I have no particular innate skill for riding. Most of my lessons have been hard ones. Despite valuable and continuing instruction I've dealt with problems that have resulted in crashing. That crashing has taught me many valuable lessons along the way. The most important being that I'm not afraid of it. I've broken bones and damaged bikes, but I reinforced my mental game by removing fear of the unknown.

I've also been told I have an extraordinarily low sense of self preservation so my perspective may be a little warped by that.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:21 PM   #53
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I understand all of that. I also understand that there is feedback from the bike that I learned first hand that I could never have experienced watching a video. I know the limits of all three of my bikes. I learned them all the hard way. I know the warning signs of when I'm pushing the bike past some limit. Whether it be tires, suspension, track, or rider; the bike gives me feedback on all of those things. The only reason I know where the limits that feedback is describing are at is because I've sailed past them.

I'm not advocating crashing. I'm just pointing out the reality for most of us. I have no particular innate skill for riding. Most of my lessons have been hard ones. Despite valuable and continuing instruction I've dealt with problems that have resulted in crashing. That crashing has taught me many valuable lessons along the way. The most important being that I'm not afraid of it. I've broken bones and damaged bikes, but I reinforced my mental game by removing fear of the unknown.

I've also been told I have an extraordinarily low sense of self preservation so my perspective may be a little warped by that.
Like.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:22 PM   #54
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That's all well and good, but it's also a perfect example of taking one step at a time versus leaping. It might've been the difference between a tire sliding a little bit versus a low side.

I might not learn as much as you did. But if you (you in general) were out the rest of the track day and spent $350 on repairs, meanwhile I finished the rest of the day and spent that $350 on 2 more track days...who learned more?

-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:24 PM   #55
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...who learned more?

-Cody
That's a very subjective question and leads us to the point we're discussing now.

Hence the varying opinions on the matter.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:00 PM   #56
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Aj is banned from mh lol
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:03 PM   #57
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I dont think there's a single answer that would encompass everyone. Everyone is going to be different and I'd imagine it would also depend on the severity of the wreck.

My track bike is also my street bike and its never been down. If I have a fairly minor wreck and dent my tank a little but thats it, I might get over my 'I reallllllllllllllllllllllllly dont want to wreck' syndrome and learn from my mistake and push myself harder.

In the meantime, I'll take my 2:03's over a 1:56 but I crashed the next lap any day of the week
-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:20 PM   #58
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Just for fun, this insight from a banned former MH member:

"*alls def make you faster but you have to make sure your skills are at the same level. I know it's been said over and over but learning to be smooth is key. I do tds on shagged tires and it helps me learn to feel and control the bike."
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJFlo
"I do tds on shagged tires because I'm a huge cheap "
fify. I shouldve took pictures of his brake pads he took off before the race. Past the wear marker and still asks 'think i can make it today on these'?

haha
-Cody
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:34 PM   #60
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Quote:
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I can say for me, wrecking would make me slower from a mental block I'd develop.
For me that has been the case. When I was starting to give it gas, I crashed. then 2 years later (yes, two years), I started riding at a good pace again and then bam, 2 crashes. Now I am back to pu$$y status

It seems I am repeating the cycle again, the first time I was frighten while riding, but I had to overcome that fear. Then when I was starting to get faster, I had nightmares the days after a race or a TD, those went for a good while. Then my mindset was in the right place.

Guess, back to square one...again.


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Aj is banned from mh lol
Who is that 956 guy posting?
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