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Old 11-12-2006, 11:54 PM   #21
Patrick
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I've torn down thousands of engines in the last 20 or so years. I've seen the difference keeping clean, high quality oil in them makes.
Based on that I stick by my recommendations.
If you want to change your oil less often, hey, it's your dime.
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:58 PM   #22
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:59 PM   #23
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
My dad used to have a saying; "Oil is cheap, engines are expensive."
My dad said the same thing. I pay about $10 for a gallon of oil from Honda for my Honda, and about the same for a Honda Filter. I change the oil every track day and the filter every other track day, for an average cost of $15 per track day - cut the fliter open at every filter change for inspection. Maybe overkill, but if you figure ALL the cost of doing track days, the difference between this way and a longer interval might save you - what $10 per track day - that ain't squat in the total cost picture! CHEAP INSURANCE, and it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. My 2 cents worth.
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:05 AM   #25
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if you have beaucoup money change..........bikes every track day!
GIXXERBILL DOES! J/K :laughing6 :laughing6 :laughing6 :laughing6
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ownage
hey patrick correct me if im wrong but dont you do oil and filter changes for about $42?
Hahaha. ownage , that is definately your baby in your avatar!:laughing6 :laughing6 :laughing6

Congrats to you and momma.


Hey all, your insight into all this is very much appreciated.
I know I'm not a pro racer by any means. But my engine is more expensive than oil and I will take Patricks advice over anyone elses.
Knee dragger- your avatar makes me--:icon_bigg :icon_bigg
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:10 AM   #27
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Ant,
You're correct. The combination of viscosity breakdown, as well as dirt / debris floating around that will imbed itself into bearing surfaces, is what kills most motors.

The most common engine failure I see nowadays is rod bearing failure.
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:11 AM   #28
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:18 AM   #29
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engine oils nowadays are very good...especially some of the latest fully synthetic oils. the only real way to determine when your engine actually needs the oil changed is to get your oil tested. if you do a lot of trackdays, and change you oil that frequently, it might be worth your while to do this. run a few trackdays, then change your oil....send off a sample, and see what comes back. you might be surprized at the condition of your oil. blackstone labs even have motorcycle specific oil tests for around 30 bucks.

i've never tested my motorcycle oil, so this is my personal belief, but if you are running the latest and greatest fully synthetic oils (i.e. motul 300V, repsol 4T, etc) and changing oil every 3k miles on the street or every other trackday, you probably are wasting ur money.
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:31 AM   #30
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:43 AM   #31
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Max,
I've run multiple oil analysis for myself and my customers, on everything from high mileage tourers to championship winning racebikes.
While viscosity breakdown on some of the more advanced synthetic oils is neglegible, it's the contaminants that are floating around that's the issue.
Unfortunately, most filters only filter MAXIMUM 10 microns and that's at a rate of 40% for a single pass.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:02 AM   #32
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With the track day done and another 800+ mile weekend coming I'm definately changing it, but I was curious if I should have changed it before AND after.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:07 AM   #33
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I usually like to do a track day on fresh oil, and then will street ride till the next one, changing it again before the next track day.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Max,
I've run multiple oil analysis for myself and my customers, on everything from high mileage tourers to championship winning racebikes.
While viscosity breakdown on some of the more advanced synthetic oils is neglegible, it's the contaminants that are floating around that's the issue.
Unfortunately, most filters only filter MAXIMUM 10 microns and that's at a rate of 40% for a single pass.
So it's not an oil integrity problem, but a filtering problem. On my car, I run 4k between filter changes, and 8k between oil changes...for the same reason. 40% for a single pass at 10 microns sounds like a darn good filter. do you really think particles <10 micron are that damaging (<.0004")? what is the typical rod bearing clearance on today's sportbikes? there are several things that can cause rod bearing failures...many not related to contaminated oil.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:29 AM   #35
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Max,
10 microns at 40% and 40 microns at 80%, single pass. So whats that <.0016? Typical rod bearing clearance is .002.
Once again that's on a good oil filter, not a Fram Walmart special.

What we see is the gradual wearing away of the bearing surface, increasing the clearance, thereby allowing the miniscule bearing contact area that the oil has to cushion to experience a pressure drop. Hit the rev limiter, have a little detonation, etc. and bye bye rod bearing.

Oil and filters can be debated all night long, I graduated with several fellow engineers that wrote opposing final opinions on the matter.

I'll stick by my fathers' axiom; "oil is cheap, engines are expensive." It's served me well for years.
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Last edited by Patrick; 11-13-2006 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Oil and filters can be debated all night long, I graduated with several fellow engineers that wrote opposing final opinions on the matter.
:laughing6 yes, they can. sounds typical of us engineers. i think many reccomended oil intervals are excessive, but i'm sure 95% of this board doesn't care to hear about all this oil nonsense, so i'll let it die.
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Old 11-13-2006, 02:36 AM   #37
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