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Old 11-03-2006, 11:20 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I'm not even talking about just France and Germany...I'm referring to England, China, Spain, and most importantly those mideastern countries we consider allies...paricularly since our area of operations would infact be in the MIDEAST
So your saying that we need to ask their permission first before our military wipes it's a$$ outside of our borders?

Good one there. Way to conduct policy.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
So your saying that we need to ask their permission first before our military wipes it's a$$ outside of our borders?

Good one there. Way to conduct policy.
Absolutely not...but you need a stroke of reality. I believe we can do whatever the we please but your acting like we are gonna be strong arming these allies of ours...gtf outta here with that...

I'm actually for a stronger policy of engagement, I just realize there are severe implications to "mowing down" civilians...over 40% of the world population is Muslim...we need to be intelligent about shyt
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Absolutely not...but you need a stroke of reality. I believe we can do whatever the we please but your acting like we are gonna be strong arming these allies of ours...gtf outta here with that...
You just contradicted your entire argument.

What I am saying is that war is not a politically correct business that should be handled with concern for foreign opinions and that a military campaign should be conducted in a ruthless, efficient manner.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:27 AM   #24
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Here are some figures for consideration...

Commonly cited estimates of the Muslim population today range between 900 million and 1.5 billion people (cf. Adherents.com); estimates of Islam by country based on U.S. State Department figures yield a total of 1.48 billion, while the Muslim delegation at the United Nations quoted 1.2 billion as the global Muslim population in September 2005.[citation needed]

Only 18% of Muslims live in the Arab world; 20% are found in Sub-Saharan Africa, about 30% in the South Asian region of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and the world's largest single Muslim community (within the bounds of one nation) is in Indonesia. There are also significant Muslim populations in China, Europe, Central Asia, and Russia.

France has the highest Muslim population of any nation in Western Europe, with up to 6 million Muslims (10% of the population[30]). Albania has the highest proportion of Muslims as part of its population in Europe (70%), although this figure is only an estimate (see Islam in Albania). Countries in Europe with many Muslims include Bosnia and Herzegovina (estimated around 50 % are Bosniaks, Muslims) and Macedonia where over 30 % of the population is Muslim, mostly ethnic Albanians in Macedonia. The country in Europe with the most Muslims is Russia. The number of Muslims in North America is variously estimated as anywhere from 1.8 to 7 million.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I'm actually for a stronger policy of engagement,
Then we agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I just realize there are severe implications to "mowing down" civilians...over 40% of the world population is Muslim...we need to be intelligent about shyt
The women in the article stopped being civilians when they entered a battle zone to assist and rescue the enemy.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:33 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
The women in the article stopped being civilians when they entered a battle zone to assist and rescue the enemy.
That doesn't make them enemy combatants...if anything else they were criminally inhibiting the apprehension of criminals and were therefore acting criminally but being that they did not have weapons I'm hard pressed to imagine that warrented "mowing" them down...
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:35 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
You just contradicted your entire argument.

What I am saying is that war is not a politically correct business that should be handled with concern for foreign opinions and that a military campaign should be conducted in a ruthless, efficient manner.
No, I'm sorry...I did not. I said that I was for a stronger policy but being that I never explicitly stated just exactly what that was, and you are unaware just what that entails...you have no basis for judgement as to whether or not I "contradicted" my "entire argument"....War is never PC, but your are clearly not a realist
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
That doesn't make them enemy combatants...if anything else they were criminally inhibiting the apprehension of criminals and were therefore acting criminally but being that they did not have weapons I'm hard pressed to imagine that warrented "mowing" them down...
The definition of terms is an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant". This would subject them to arrest and trial, but since the individuals they were protecting were armed and considered dangerous, arrest would have been difficult if not dangerous at the time, thus the justification for ending the engagement through force of action.

The short answer,

Time to mow the grass.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
The definition of terms is an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant".
I won't get into semantics here as it would be trivial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
This would subject them to arrest and trial, but since the individuals they were protecting were armed and considered dangerous, arrest would have been difficult if not dangerous at the time...
Nobody ever said the right thing to do is always easy. I say they should have set up a perimeter, blocked off any exit and forced a surrender...you can't just go shooting the lot of them because you can't get to the armed criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
thus the justification for ending the engagement through force of action.
Based on what -US standard- precedent?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I won't get into semantics here as it would be trivial...
WRONG

It does matter. There are different international protections granted to different groups. Correct terminology is needed for such discussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Nobody ever said the right thing to do is always easy. I say they should have set up a perimeter, blocked off any exit and forced a surrender...you can't just go shooting the lot of them because you can't get to the armed criminals.
I agree that would have been the Politically Correct thing to do, but historically the IDF does not have such restrictions or concern for the welfare of their enemies. The IDF of the 60's and 70's would have kicked and taken names from the bodies of the dead.

The IDF has a historic reputation for ruthlessness without remorse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
Based on what -US standard- precedent?
Remember, we are not talking about a US military incident here, we are refering to an article about the IDF. Explain to me how a US precedent or "-US standard-" has any relevance to Isreal?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:36 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
WRONG-It does matter. There are different international protections granted to different groups. Correct terminology is needed for such discussions.
Particularly because what you or I actually have to say makes that great a difference. Get the outta here with that nonsense...Unlawful/Lawful? The fact that I said "enemy combatant" alone accomplishes the point I was making, and that is that there were "terrorists" in a mosque. Why then is it necessary to compositionally establish the difference between an "enemy combatant" and and "unlawful enemy" combatant within the scope of this discussion being that this discussion was based solely on the topic of terrorism? A terrorist is by default, an "unlawful enemy combatant". Perhaps I gave you more credit than was merited to be able to deduce those facets discussed in the latter. I would surely hope not. Again, semantics with regard to atleast the two of us, would deem trivial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
I agree that would have been the Politically Correct thing to do, but historically the IDF does not have such restrictions or concern for the welfare of their enemies. The IDF of the 60's and 70's would have kicked and taken names from the bodies of the dead.

The IDF has a historic reputation for ruthlessness without remorse.
I realize this but they were also scrutinized by the international community (including the US for their "ruthlessness")...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
Remember, we are not talking about a US military incident here, we are refering to an article about the IDF. Explain to me how a US precedent or "-US standard-" has any relevance to Isreal?
You should have read one of my initial posts. I was asking what WE should do given those circumstances....*click* EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
What would you advise with the given circumstance? Would you advocate firing on the women as they are intentionally impeding any engagement? Would you just cut your losses and let them go?

The reason I ask these questions is because I'm wondering what actions we should advocate the implementation of because I am beginning to see a trend with the terrorists. They explore every avenue available to them and will undoubtly exploit given weaknesses. If we implement a policy of non-attack on civilians/women/children, they will organize rallies to carry out their attacks. If we partake in the policy of engaging the enemy amongst civilians, we will undoubtly see significant collateral damage and will therefore be down-talked by the world community (as if we gave a ). So what do you all suggest we do given these circumstances?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:36 PM   #32
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kill children?? that's disgusting, how can you call yourself a human being?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:37 PM   #33
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kill children?? that's disgusting, how can you call yourself a human being?
+1 but don't do that cause he might start calling you a liberal :eh:
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:38 PM   #34
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+1 but don't do that cause he might start calling you a liberal :eh:
...or a socialist
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
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...or a socialist
that too. I think because like he's shown before on this board he doesn't care for that religion or it's people. you cansee that when he made the statement "that's what they do." tha'ts why it would be nothing to kill children in his eyes.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I realize this but they were also scrutinized by the international community (including the US for their "ruthlessness")...
Why should Isreal care? They are surrounded by enemies and have a history of hostilities with these people going back a century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
You should have read one of my initial posts. I was asking what WE should do given those circumstances....*click* EDIT
I did read your initial post, it was a CNN article about an IDF incident. The post I made (#2 in the thread) was that the IDF should not have been PC. The post you are referring to now was your third post in this thread.

Now go back and *click* your EDIT button.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
Why should Isreal care? They are surrounded by enemies and have a history of hostilities with these people going back a century.
But the bottom line is...they DO care what the US says, end of that discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason
I did read your initial post, it was a CNN article about an IDF incident. The post I made (#2 in the thread) was that the IDF should not have been PC. The post you are referring to now was your third post in this thread.

Now go back and *click* your EDIT button.
The terminology "one of" when used in conjunction are indicative of the plural nature of the statement. As for you making post #2, that was YOUR post. My first actual post happened to be post #3, making it atleast an initial post. Post #1 was the article, #3 was my input and was the issue I was under the impression we were discussing, particularly because you were addressing the aforementioned question...not that hard to understand is it ?
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:38 PM   #38
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you guyz havent really been a real war, or a conflict zone , have you?
Ask those out there, how many of them want to REALLY keep doing what they do, and how many just want to come home safe to their families.

or just go see that clint eastwood's movie. and those that the public made heroes, see what they have to say... all they were tryin to do out there was not get hit by the bullet!

I wish you would volunteer to have you and your family put in the conflict zone, and THEN, i would like to hear what you have to say. its so frakin easy to sit here and say this that . but remember, what goes around always comes back. and PAYBACK IS A !!!!! u just find it out too late!
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedismo
you guyz havent really been a real war, or a conflict zone , have you?

Ask those out there, how many of them want to REALLY keep doing what they do, and how many just want to come home safe to their families. or just go see that clint eastwood's movie. and those that the public made heroes, see what they have to say... all they were tryin to do out there was not get hit by the bullet!
True I haven't been in a war, but I happen to work for military and having plenty of friends that HAVE been in wartime situations, I realize that it is no cakewalk. It does severe psychological damage to those who happen to experience it. Imagine a seeing a guy that you've been rooming with for the last year splattered all over the road. Not exactly my idea of a good day. Hence the reason I say that we have to be mindful of the implications of killing large amounts of civilians without due cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedismo
I wish you would volunteer to have you and your family put in the conflict zone, and THEN, i would like to hear what you have to say. its so frakin easy to sit here and say this that . but remember, what goes around always comes back. and PAYBACK IS A !!!!! u just find it out too late!
The are you talking about ?
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Old 11-03-2006, 02:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
The terminology "one of" when used in conjunction are indicative of the plural nature of the statement. As for you making post #2, that was YOUR post. My first actual post happened to be post #3, making it atleast an initial post. Post #1 was the article, #3 was my input and was the issue
It was post #4, not #3. #3 was your rebuttal to my post #2. Since your post #3 was a rebuttal, I addressed it in post #8 of this thread,

Hear are the rules, you make a post, I rebut. I make a post you rebut. That is how a discussion works.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the article in your post #1, thus my comment and substance in post #2 in this thread, which you rebutted. If you want to talk about something else or another subject, you should make a new thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
I was under the impression we were discussing, particularly because you were addressing the aforementioned question...not that hard to understand is it ?
My post #7 addressed the fist part of your post #4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA
What would you advise with the given circumstance? Would you advocate firing on the women as they are intentionally impeding any engagement? Would you just cut your losses and let them go?
My response was made within the context of discussing your post #1, since this thread was about the IDF.

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...48&postcount=7

Addressing the second part of #4

What should we do, nothing. This is a problem that the IDF fight and they should have mowed the grass.

Please refer to my post #2

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...30&postcount=2
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