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Old 09-08-2011, 11:12 AM   #1
vince7
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Synthetic oil vs Conventional oil

I have a 2009 zx6r with just over 6,000 miles on it. I think the engine is broken in by now and now I want to put synthetic oil in the bike.

Any recommendations as to which brand and the viscosity?
Also any reason to stay with conventional oil?
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:21 AM   #2
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Im using Amsoil atm and I love it, but Ive been wanting to try royal purple.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:24 AM   #3
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Nearly 23,000 miles on my bike in less than two years and all I use is Pro Honda GN4 10W40
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince7 View Post
Also any reason to stay with conventional oil?
if you change your oil on a regular basis. you dont need synthetic. especially with only 6k miles.

When you get into the higher mileages im sure it wouldnt hurt. but with the way engines are being built, 6k miles is hardly "broken in"
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRYAN View Post
if you change your oil on a regular basis. you dont need synthetic. especially with only 6k miles.

When you get into the higher mileages im sure it wouldnt hurt. but with the way engines are being built, 6k miles is hardly "broken in"
It would make more sense to have a superior oil earlier, once a vehicle is high mileage excessive wear would have already happened.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRYAN View Post
if you change your oil on a regular basis. you dont need synthetic. especially with only 6k miles.

When you get into the higher mileages im sure it wouldnt hurt. but with the way engines are being built, 6k miles is hardly "broken in"
When I switch to synthetic oil I won't be changing the oil as often. And I'd be switching to synthetic so the engine runs cooler.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:37 PM   #7
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I use synthetic in everything I own, a little extra cost is worth the pease of mind IMO.

If you use non-motorcycle specific oils, I've been told to stay away from any oil labeled "energy conserving" on the rear label, as the friction modifiers cause clutch slippage. I use Mobil1 15W-50 in my R6 year round and I've never had a problem.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:38 PM   #8
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will synthetic make the engine run cooler??

i'm using mobile 1 10-40 full synthetic with a turbo. only reason i'm using synthetic is because of the turbo. i think any synthetic meant for a motorcycle would be great.

had a bmw car that called for synthetic and i used it, but the car's computer ( and the dealership "free service" ) called for changes every 12,000 - 15,000 miles. ya, i changed it myself every 6000. just seems way tooo long to wait on a change.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:38 PM   #9
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There are a ton of threads on this topic if you use the search function.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djphoo View Post
had a bmw car that called for synthetic and i used it, but the car's computer ( and the dealership "free service" ) called for changes every 12,000 - 15,000 miles. ya, i changed it myself every 6000. just seems way tooo long to wait on a change.
I had a BMW 325ci a while back. They use Mobil1 Extended Performance, it's designed to go 15,000 miles between changes. It seemed too long to me also at first but the car ran like a champ and I put 30,000 miles on it in 15 months.

Last edited by chadeaux; 09-08-2011 at 12:42 PM. Reason: oops
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
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There are a ton of threads on this topic if you use the search function.
He's been a member for almost a year and still hasn't figured out what that little search button does...
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgtomahawk View Post
It would make more sense to have a superior oil earlier, once a vehicle is high mileage excessive wear would have already happened.
no, because the engine needs to break itself in amd using the more expensive stuff would just be a waste of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vince7 View Post
When I switch to synthetic oil I won't be changing the oil as often. And I'd be switching to synthetic so the engine runs cooler.
I'm not sure if I'm convinced the synthetic even does this. do you have data to prove this?
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:47 PM   #13
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I got this from a friend, hope it helps answer some of yalls questions.

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Oil Change Intervals

Few subjects generate as much debate on Usenet as the proper oil change interval. Since few people bother with oil analysis the debate centers on time and mileage.

Follow the Money
Unfortunately, there are market forces that have a vested interest in convincing vehicle owners to change their oil more often than necessary. The legal prey of these market forces have become convinced that they are purchasing "cheap insurance" or "peace of mind" by changing their oil more often than necessary. Complicating things is the fact that doing oil changes is one of the few do-it-yourself maintenance tasks that is still within the ability of the backyard mechanic to perform.

Recreational Oil Changing
The term "recreational oil changer" was coined to define people that change their oil far more than necessary because they actually enjoy doing it. It's easy to understand the psychology behind the recreational oil changing. It's the visceral feel of the tools, the victory when that old oil filter breaks free, the hot dirty oil pouring out, the joy of oiling of the gasket on the new filter, that new copper or fiber gasket on the drain plug, the clean clear oil going in, and the sense of accomplishment when you start the car, the oil light comes on for a moment, then goes out. For $8-10 in oil and parts, it's pretty cheap entertainment, but if people would be content to do it only when it provides some benefit to the vehicle it would be better.

The 3000 Mile Myth
The 3000 mile oil change interval has been pounded into people's heads for decades. It had a scientific basis when engines used non-multi-weight, non-detergent oil. It no longer has any scientific basis, but it is still being promoted by certain entities, most notably the oil change industry in the United States. This myth is also sometimes known as the "Cheap Insurance Myth."

The 3000 Mile Fact
There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because the oil goes bad after 3K miles. One example is the Saturn S series. These vehicles have a timing chain system that is very sensitive to clean oil because oil pressure is used as hydraulic fluid to ratchet up the timing chain tensioner. If varnish forms in the timing chain tensioner bore then this system can fail and the chain will become loose and eventually break. Dealers have gone as far as tearing out the normal service schedule (6000 miles) and leaving only the severe service schedule. If your engine is destroyed (under warranty) by a failed timing chain then the dealer will legitimately request evidence of oil changes. Unfortunately this problem usually won't manifest itself during the warranty period.

The Dark Oil Myth
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.
Quote:

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S.

Severe Service versus Normal Service
Each manufacturer specifies what constitutes normal and severe service. Generally, severe service consists of operating the vehicle in a very muddy or dusty areas (because dust particles get through the air filter and contaminate the oil more quickly), operating the vehicle in a very hot areas (heat breaks down oil more quickly), using the vehicle only for short trips in cold weather (the moisture in the oil never gets vaporized), or using the vehicle for towing or when carrying a car-top carrier. You'll often see claims such as "everyone falls into the severe service category," but these claims are untrue (follow the money and see who's making these claims). If you primarily do freeway driving in moderate weather you do not fall into the severe service category. If you're in doubt, the best way to see if you fall into the severe service category is to have an oil analysis done at the mileage of the severe service interval. Many people just like to play it safe and follow the severe service schedule, which is fine, but there is no benefit in changing the oil sooner than the severe service schedule states.

Maintenance Schedules Vary by Country
Different countries have different maintenance schedules, even for the same car. This fact has been the cause of long argument threads on Usenet. How could the exact same car need a different service schedule simply because of where the vehicle is used? At least part of the reason is due to the differences in fuel. For example, the U.S. and Canada has fuel with high sulphur levels which can cause more oil contamination. Japanese fuel has very low sulphur levels. Europe is in-between. Some of the newer engine technology (direct injection) which raises fuel economy, requires low sulphur fuel. Of course the oil companies have a vested interest in not lowering the sulphur as it adds to refining cost and enables more fuel efficient engines. Since "Big Oil" is in bed with the un-elected president in the U.S., don't expect any action of lower sulphur fuel for a while in the United States. If Al Gore is re-elected in 2004, and the Supremes don't simply ignore the election results again, then there is a chance for lower sulphur fuel in the U.S. beginning in 2005.

Oil change intervals with synthetic oil
Synthetic oils withstand higher temperatures before breaking down, and have more base stock and less viscosity modifiers. Synthetics wear out, become acidic, and eventually become saturated with suspended soot particles, just like regular oil. Again, an oil analysis is a good investment to determine the optimum oil change interval. Never exceed the manufacturer requirements for normal service.

Filter Change Interval
Back in the days of 3000 mile oil changes many manufacturers recommended filter changes only half as often because the filter did not become clogged with dirt at only 3000 miles. This was good advice back then, especially because with non-detergent motor oils a lot of the sludge remained stuck to internal engine parts rather than being carried in the oil to the filter. Nowadays the filter should be changed at every oil change. There are some people who believe so much in synthetic oil that they change filters without changing the oil. There's no harm in changing the filter without changing the oil, but there is no point in doing this.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:47 PM   #14
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On my 09 R6 when I switched to full synthetic I sometimes had issues with shifting. I have switched to a synthetic blend and all is good. I have 16k miles.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:50 PM   #15
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oils

Quote:
Which Oil to Use

Detergent Oil
Virtually all modern multi-weight oils are detergent oils. Detergent oil, cleans the soot of the internal engine parts and suspends the soot particles in the oil. The particles are too small to be trapped by the oil filter and stay in the oil until you change it. These particles are what makes the oil turn darker. These tiny particles do not harm your engine. When the oil becomes saturated with soot particles and is unable to suspend any more, the particles remain on the engine parts. Fortunately, with the current oil change intervals the oil is changed long before the oil is saturated.

Non-detergent oil, such as SAE 30, is not used in modern passenger vehicle engines. It is still used in some gasoline engines such as lawnmowers.

Oil Viscosity
The viscosity of multi-weight motor oil is specified using two numbers. The first number is the viscosity when the oil is cold. This is followed by the letter W (which stands for winter, not weight), which is followed by the number that indicates the viscosity when the oil is at operating temperature. The higher the number the thicker the oil.

Viscosity Modifiers
In order to protect an engine at start time, the oil needs to be thinner when cold so it flows freely. Viscosity modifiers are added to the base stock to make the oil flow better when cold, without making the oil too thin when hot.

Climate Considerations
Owner's manuals and service manuals will specify the acceptable oil to use at various temperatures. In warm climates, 10W30 is usually an acceptable alternative to the preferred 5W30 and may be used without measurable adverse effects. In the olden days, before multi-weight oils, it was common to have a winter oil and a summer oil. This is no longer necessary, but if you normally use 10W30 because you live in a warm climate then be sure to switch to 5W30 if you plan on using the vehicle in very cold weather.

5W30 versus 10W30
Virtually all new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. use either 5W30 or 10W30 oil. The difference between the two is that the 5W30 flows better when cold, so if you live in a cold climate or operate your vehicle in a cold climate during the winter months, you should use 5W30 if it is the preferred oil for your vehicle. If you live in a sub-tropical climate and don't operate your vehicle in cold climates, then 10W30 is acceptable as long as the manufacturer specifies that it is permissible to use it.

Is there a disadvantage to using an oil that flows better when cold, i.e. 5W30 versus 10W30?
Sometimes, but usually not. The crux of the issue is this: the bigger the difference between the cold oil viscosity and the hot oil viscosity, the more the volume of viscosity modifiers and the less the volume of base stock. If you are good about following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval then stick with the 5W30 if that is the preferred oil for your vehicle, even if 10W30 is acceptable in warmer climates. Older cars may specify 10W30 only. This is because they need a little more viscosity when cold to keep a protective film on the cylinder walls. There have been instances where the larger amount of viscosity modifiers that are present in 5W30 have broken down due to excessive heat and have left carbon deposits on the valves, but this is extremely rare. The proper fix would be to reduce the excessive heat, but the workaround was to use an oil with less viscosity modifiers.

Why do many oil change places, even dealerships, use 10W30 instead of 5W30, even when 5W30 is preferred?
According to www.cartalk.com (see link in the references section), as well as many mechanics who have posted on usenet, 10W30 is the closest thing to a one size fits all oil. Many older vehicles need 10W30, and most newer vehicles are okay with it in warmer climates. Since many garages don't want to have multiple tanks of bulk oil they choose to carry only 10W30. The advice that Tom & Ray give is correct, 'it would not be a disaster if you used 10W30, but given a choice, go with the manufacturer's recommendation and use the 5W30.'

Thicker is Better Myth
The reason that oil viscosities have gotten thinner is because bearing clearances have become smaller. Using thicker oils will interfere with oil flow and the oil pressure will increase. In a worn engine it may be okay to increase the viscosity of the oil because the bearing clearances have become larger.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oil Additives
Do not use any oil additives no matter how much they are hyped on TV. They provide no benefit and can interfere and react with the additives already present in the oil. Some additives have particles that can clog oil passages and clog filters. Common additives that are heavily hyped are Slick 50, Duralube, and Prolong.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oil Analysis
To determine the optimum oil change frequency for your vehicle requires that you perform several oil analysis during one oil change interval. For example, if your vehicle has 15,000 miles on it and the manufacturer recommends 7500 mile oil changes for normal service and 5000 miles for severe, perform an analysis at 18,750 miles, 20,000 miles, and 22,500 miles (if the first or second test shows a need for an oil change then stop there). Do not exceed the manufacturer's normal service interval even if the analysis shows no need for an oil change at 7500 miles. The oil change industry desperately desires that you NOT perform such an analysis. The almost certain result for most drivers will be that even at 7500 miles the oil will still be fine.

Even after your vehicle is out of warranty it is a good idea to continue to follow the manufacturer's schedule for maintenance. There are frequently special campaigns (not recalls) to fix latent defects after the warranty has expired. Lately we've seen these on some Toyota V6 engines and some Saturn engines. You want the manufacturer to have no excuse to deny coverage. Also you can sometimes get a manufacturer to share the cost of an expensive repair when something fails after the warranty has expired, but this is at their pleasure and it is best to have solid proof that you have followed the maintenance schedules.

Big oil users like bus companies and truck fleets use oil analysis to extend the life of their engines without unnecessary oil changes. The reasons are clear. These big engines can use 3-4 gallons of oil and unnecessary changes are expensive in both time and materials. In some cases they change the filters and put in additives to replace the acid neutralizers and anti-wear agents. A good analogy is swimming pool maintenance. You clean the filters, you remove the debris, you add stabilizers and disinfectants, but you rarely empty the whole pool and refill it.

For some horror stories about Jiffy Lube see: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...jiffy_lube.htm . I think I'll pass on them!
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
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no, because the engine needs to break itself in amd using the more expensive stuff would just be a waste of money.
Really? I wonder how GM and a dozen other car manufacturers feel about that, they start their vehicles from day one with Synthetic. Also a superior oil with less wear is never a waste of money.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:29 PM   #17
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I am honestly curious to how long you think engine break in takes?
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #18
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This thread makes my head hurt. If you wanna see dumb , read an oil thread.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Really? I wonder how GM and a dozen other car manufacturers feel about that, they start their vehicles from day one with Synthetic. Also a superior oil with less wear is never a waste of money.
but we arent talking about a GM motor..we are talking about a bike..very different Tech.

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I am honestly curious to how long you think engine break in takes?
depends on the engine..
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:36 PM   #20
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I like to see people who dont know argue with a mechanic.
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