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Old 06-14-2011, 04:13 PM   #261
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:16 PM   #262
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Sure, I'll pay for your roads and mine. Did you even read the entire post?
Man, what a nice guy. If you have trackdays then you'll probably have to get insurance though. And they'll require helmet usage and probably other safety gear. So ... back to topic.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:19 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadseasoN View Post
There's two different arguments going on here.
Yes - one related to the OP, the other related to figuring out how people with such low levels of reading comprehension managed to pass their MSF class.
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1. CAN the government make a law requiring helmets. Yes. What you do on a public roadway can be regulated by the government. This is the bottom line and nobody is gonna change that, no need to discuss liberty and justice for all or the Constitution.
Can government make the law? Sure. It CAN also make a law requiring you to wear brown shoes on Tuesday. Would such a law be legitimate? Most people would say "no" and proceed to ignore it.
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2. SHOULD the government require the law. IMO yes. Traffic laws are meant to regulate traffic flow and promote safe operation of vehicles. Head injuries/fatality rates are higher due to motorcycle crashes where the rider is not wearing a helmet, so the requirement would serve the purpose.
Are they? Last study I saw was that 40% of fatalities involved riders not wearing a helmet. Now, simple math tells us that 60% of fatalities involved riders WEARING a helmet. Seems to me that it is more dangerous to wear one.

Exclusive of that, how exactly does my wearing of a helmet affect traffic flow or the safe operation of a vehicle?

Yes, the helmet may improve my chances in an accident, but at that point, "safe operation" is out the window. Now we're into "injury reduction". Based upon the logic that government has the authority to order us to wear anything it believes will reduce injury, then arguably it could order us to wear full waterproof leathers - or drive a tank. Yes, that's absurd but it is a logical extension of your entire argument.

Seat belt laws at least have some relationship to safe operation of a vehicle as they keep you in the seat and allow you to retain control in the event of an accident. Wearing a helmet does not do this.

So once again, WHY should I wear one? What is the harm to another if i do not?
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:21 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by MadseasoN View Post
It is relevant because people are stuck on this "cant tell me what to do" trip. Yes, you can be told what to do on public roadways. End.

I've already answered the question of how it directly impacts traffic but "traffic" is not the only purpose of traffic laws (AKA Texas Transportation Statutes). Registration and inspection stickers don't directly affect traffic but they are required.
Registration does not, but inspection arguably does. It says that at some point the vehicle was determined to meet minimum state safe operation standards. After all, everything which is checked directly relates to the safe operation of the vehicle.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:21 PM   #265
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:22 PM   #266
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Man, what a nice guy. If you have trackdays then you'll probably have to get insurance though. And they'll require helmet usage and probably other safety gear. So ... back to topic.
Private land - private requirements. Don't like it, don't use it.

The same argument cannot be made of PUBLIC roadways, as I also pay for those, and my voice has weight as well.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:23 PM   #267
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i was just throwing out random stuff... i see your point of course...

but if you wanna get technical, how is clothing law for others? if you saw someone naked, so what? if you dont like to see other people naked, how is that any different from people who hate to see others without a helmet?
I actually agree with you - if some dumbass wants to go out in public naked, so be it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:25 PM   #268
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brain matter on roadway could cause a car to lose control
as would blood, fuel, oil etc that you're going to find on the avg accident scene.
So, in short...try again.

Quote:
I've already answered the question of how it directly impacts traffic but "traffic" is not the only purpose of traffic laws (AKA Texas Transportation Statutes). Registration and inspection stickers don't directly affect traffic but they are required.
All i can find is you making an excuse in the case of a head strike and ignoring the retort to it... we end up with the same situation as Green's attempt... try again. (or to put it another way, it's not a direct impact on traffic).
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #269
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as would blood, fuel, oil etc that you're going to find on the avg accident scene.
So, in short...try again.
As would rain for that matter...

You remember rain, don't you?
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:31 PM   #270
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Man, what a nice guy. If you have trackdays then you'll probably have to get insurance though. And they'll require helmet usage and probably other safety gear. So ... back to topic.
Are you too stupid to see the parallel, or are you ignoring on purpose? Every conceivable justification for things like helmet laws or seat belt laws rests upon the foundation of public ownership of roads. Private ownership of roads preserves my right to liberty and voluntary association. And frees me from idiots like you who think that a new law is the solution to everything.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:33 PM   #271
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Quote:
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Are you too stupid to see the parallel, or are you ignoring on purpose? Every conceivable justification for things like helmet laws or seat belt laws rests upon the foundation of public ownership of roads. Private ownership of roads preserves my right to liberty and voluntary association. And frees me from idiots like you who think that a new law is the solution to everything.
I think he, and others who support helmet laws, do see the parallel - but not in the way you and I do.

I suspect they see it as government owning the roads and if we want to use them, we play by their rules.

Of course, this ignores the simple fact that government is the servant, not the master, but so be it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:33 PM   #272
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Yes - one related to the OP, the other related to figuring out how people with such low levels of reading comprehension managed to pass their MSF class.?
I agree.

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Can government make the law? Sure. It CAN also make a law requiring you to wear brown shoes on Tuesday. Would such a law be legitimate? Most people would say "no" and proceed to ignore it..?
They have tried to legislate clothing (baggy pants). Totally unconstitutional IMO.

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Are they? Last study I saw was that 40% of fatalities involved riders not wearing a helmet. Now, simple math tells us that 60% of fatalities involved riders WEARING a helmet. Seems to me that it is more dangerous to wear one.

Exclusive of that, how exactly does my wearing of a helmet affect traffic flow or the safe operation of a vehicle?

Yes, the helmet may improve my chances in an accident, but at that point, "safe operation" is out the window. Now we're into "injury reduction". Based upon the logic that government has the authority to order us to wear anything it believes will reduce injury, then arguably it could order us to wear full waterproof leathers - or drive a tank. Yes, that's absurd but it is a logical extension of your entire argument.

Seat belt laws at least have some relationship to safe operation of a vehicle as they keep you in the seat and allow you to retain control in the event of an accident. Wearing a helmet does not do this.

So once again, WHY should I wear one? What is the harm to another if i do not?
Any person can dig up statistics to support their argument. Yes, they could require you to wear full leathers and we all know that it would be safer to do so. But at some point politics comes into play so you'd never see that law.

What's the harm if you are required to wear one? It might save your life. It might keep the [public] from having to buy you a wheelchair and lifetime supply of straws for you to eat through after you smack your head on the ground. It might save the [public] from having to sit in 2 miles of traffic while they wash your brains off the highway with a waterhose. It might save me money on insurance. There's a common theme here - driving isn't all about the individual and what the individual wants to do. Everyone participates and everyone is affected.

In this thread I've given many reasons. All I keep hearing in response is 'freedom'. Well, buy your own road and you can do what you want on your own road. There's your freedom.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:38 PM   #273
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I think he, and others who support helmet laws, do see the parallel - but not in the way you and I do.

I suspect they see it as government owning the roads and if we want to use them, we play by their rules.

Of course, this ignores the simple fact that government is the servant, not the master, but so be it.
#252 item 1. Covered it.

And no, the people own the roads. You assume wrong, at least in my case.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:43 PM   #274
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Quote:
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They have tried to legislate clothing (baggy pants). Totally unconstitutional IMO.
Why? Especially if it could be proven that brown shoes on Tuesday were safer...
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Any person can dig up statistics to support their argument.
No - that was kinda my point. You were relying upon some statistical claim that helmets were safer. I presented an alternate statistical claim. Now, we're supposed to simply ignore mine?
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Yes, they could require you to wear full leathers and we all know that it would be safer to do so. But at some point politics comes into play so you'd never see that law.
Why not? If your only argument in favor of a helmet law is "Its safer", then when the same argument is thrown back at you regarding leathers, you wouldn't really have anything to say other than what I'm saying - it is MY choice, and it should remain so.
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What's the harm if you are required to wear one?
Again - wrong question. It isnt a matter of harm in wearing one. It is the harm of requiring me to do so.
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It might save your life.
It also might end it.
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It might keep the [public] from having to buy you a wheelchair and lifetime supply of straws for you to eat through after you smack your head on the ground.
Irrelevant. There are other ways to address that which do not require infringing upon my rights. Many of those have been covered in this very discussion.
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It might save the [public] from having to sit in 2 miles of traffic while they wash your brains off the highway with a waterhose.
And it might not - of course, requiring me to wear full leathers, or better yet, not ride a motorcycle at all would give the same results. Besides, they dont wash the brains off ...much, and traffic is traffic. Accidents happen and saying that it might reduce the amount of time someone may have to wait after I'm dead and gone is a pretty lame argument.
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It might save me money on insurance.
Again - covered.
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There's a common theme here - driving isn't all about the individual and what the individual wants to do. Everyone participates and everyone is affected.
And, once again, how does my choice to NOT wear one affect YOU directly?
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In this thread I've given many reasons.
No, you've given many emotionally driven responses which you have not totally thought out. This is not the same as a reason. I'm still waiting for a direct answer to my question. How does someone's choice to not wear one harm you directly? Not how MIGHT it, but how DOES it. They are two different things.
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All I keep hearing in response is 'freedom'.
That's a good enough reason as any. I do believe we started a country based on that very thing...
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Well, buy your own road and you can do what you want on your own road. There's your freedom.
Ah - so basically you're saying that since the road is paid for by your taxes as well as mine that my opinion doesn't matter because you don't actually care?
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:47 PM   #275
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as would blood, fuel, oil etc that you're going to find on the avg accident scene.
So, in short...try again.



All i can find is you making an excuse in the case of a head strike and ignoring the retort to it... we end up with the same situation as Green's attempt... try again. (or to put it another way, it's not a direct impact on traffic).
It's a direct impact on the roadway. As in head to pavement.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:49 PM   #276
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#252 item 1. Covered it.

And no, the people own the roads. You assume wrong, at least in my case.
Yes, the roads are currently public property. People with your opinion are a perfect example of why this is a problem.

The only type of person who calls for laws that control the decisions of others are those who feel so lost and purposeless that they yearn to be told what to do. They seek to satisfy this need through gov't mandates that make their decisions for them. They NEED to have someone make their decisions for them. They have so little confidence in their own mental ability that they can't conceive that anyone else could ever experience certainty on any level.

You are the living embodyment of the term 'sheeple' my friend.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:49 PM   #277
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#252 item 1. Covered it.
No, really it didn't.
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And no, the people own the roads. You assume wrong, at least in my case.
That's right - the people do. Guess what? I'm one of those people. Do I not have a say? Can I not argue against it?

Listen to everything you're saying. It all comes down to one thing: Because government said so. Then you try everything you can to rationalize the dictate from Austin.

You ridicule those who are arguing in favor of freedom and tell them to shut the up because freedom isn't good enough.

You say buy your own roads and do what you want but if you want to drive on public roads, you must submit.

Really?

Now look at the other side of the aisle. We're simply asking WHY? How does it harm YOU? No orders. No dictates. No fascist or authoritarian attitude.

Once you start supporting one level of government overreach, it becomes increasingly difficult to argue against the next level.

You say that full leathers would never be required - well, all i have to say to THAT is, "smoking legislation".
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:51 PM   #278
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It's a direct impact on the roadway. As in head to pavement.
To whit a head will do less structural damage than a helmet would/will.
The road is a surface, it is not 'traffic'...
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:54 PM   #279
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:58 PM   #280
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To whit a head will do less structural damage than a helmet would/will.
The road is a surface, it is not 'traffic'...
Not sure what a whit a head is, but if its race that shouldnt be a factor. A helmet will not leave as much of a mess to clean up. The mess would take longer to clean up and that would effect traffic. I don't think a helmet would cause strucural damage to a roadway do you?
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