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Old 06-02-2011, 09:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
On a side note, you really shouldn't be using the rear brakes on a sportbike unless in an emergency situation.
+1. Does MSF not teach this stuff nowadays?
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:15 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
+1. Does MSF not teach this stuff nowadays?
MSF is still geared for standard bikes. They still teach using both brakes.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:21 AM   #23
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I use my rear in parking lots, areas with gravel, hard braking, some turns, and when roads are wet.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:33 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by bluewave18 View Post
I use my rear in parking lots, areas with gravel, hard braking, some turns, and when roads are wet.
I'm sure experience and different bike dynamics play a big role, but in a general sense, I've always heard never use your rear brake unless you aren't on pavement.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:35 AM   #25
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DO NOT try to fix your brakes yourself, unless you know EXACTLY which brake fluid is currently in your brake lines. DOT3/4 are NOT compatible with DOT 5 brake fluid. DO NOT go by what the front and rear brake resevior caps say. KNOW what is in there.

If you dont know, do not add anything! Take it to a shop, and let them completely purge the brake system, and redo from there. If you cannot afford it, hopefully someone here can step up.

I would highly recommend staying OFF the bike, until it is properly serviced.
What bike even uses dot 5???
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post

There's nothing to changing pads on a rear brake. The only difficult step is that the rear wheel has to be removed to access the pads.

On a side note, you really shouldn't be using the rear brakes on a sportbike unless in an emergency situation.

Actually, two bolts and the caliper is off.. and some of the late models you just pop the pad retainer pin out and slide out the top.. no reason to remove the rear wheel..

And using the rear brake prior to the front helps to squat the bike and reduce the tendency to unload the rear tire.. body position will help counteract the endo as well... the rear brake is also less likely to stand the bike up mid corner than the front will..

Plus.. the front may provide 90% of the total braking power.... why give up even 10%??

Of course... "no one" brakes in a corner, right?
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:44 AM   #27
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I wanted to add that there is no reason to open the line. I have seen some interpret remove the caliper to mean break the line open. There is no reason to remove the brake line from the caliper to change pads.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
I'm sure experience and different bike dynamics play a big role, but in a general sense, I've always heard never use your rear brake unless you aren't on pavement.
Who was it.. one of the MotoGP guys added a second lever or linked brakes when he hurt his foot.....

Try this... get rolling at a good speed, say 40-50

Hit the front brake normal, like you are trying to stop real quick.. note what the chassis does

Repeat exercise, but apply rear brake, then front..note what chassis does..

Also, sitting up straight and locking elbows will increase the chassis dive, try staying close to the tank, elbows relaxed, and use your knees on the tank to hang on when braking.

I adjust the rear so it is almost impossible to lock without really trying.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Who was it.. one of the MotoGP guys added a second lever or linked brakes when he hurt his foot.....

Try this... get rolling at a good speed, say 40-50

Hit the front brake normal, like you are trying to stop real quick.. note what the chassis does

Repeat exercise, but apply rear brake, then front..note what chassis does..

Also, sitting up straight and locking elbows will increase the chassis dive, try staying close to the tank, elbows relaxed, and use your knees on the tank to hang on when braking.

I adjust the rear so it is almost impossible to lock without really trying.
Noted

the bike loads the front end in both situations. at BEST the rear is capable of doing 20% of the braking. However, because we're on very light motorcycles with brakes that are capable of picking up the rear, the front can (and does in many hard braking circumstances) do 100% of the braking.

An exercise for you to do is to watch WSBK or MotoGP going into turn 1 at Monza. The fast guys are hanging the rear tire going into that turn. If the rear tire isn't even on the ground, stomping the rear brake doesn't do anything, but make people that are used to using it feel better.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
MSF is still geared for standard bikes. They still teach using both brakes.
They teach use both brakes to build habit/muscle memory so that when the need arises, you are already using both brakes.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:00 AM   #31
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So based on one turn, you feel they NEVER use the rear brake? I'll wager that they use it a bunch more than they don't..

Watch any of the top tier racers under hard braking at the end of the straights.. the bikes are sqauting and stopping hard with both tires on the ground.

The main reason for the invention of slipper clutches is because aggresive down shifts plus rear braking locked the tire...


oh, and "stomping the rear brake" shouldn't even be in your vocabulary.... like every input on any of the controls, smooth and controlled is the word
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:07 AM   #32
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I use my rear brake every time I stop. It keeps the bike from diving as much, especially if I have a passenger.

I probably use it for about 20% of the stopping but its always used. , I just changed my rear brake pads.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Noted

the bike loads the front end in both situations. at BEST the rear is capable of doing 20% of the braking. However, because we're on very light motorcycles with brakes that are capable of picking up the rear, the front can (and does in many hard braking circumstances) do 100% of the braking.

An exercise for you to do is to watch WSBK or MotoGP going into turn 1 at Monza. The fast guys are hanging the rear tire going into that turn. If the rear tire isn't even on the ground, stomping the rear brake doesn't do anything, but make people that are used to using it feel better.
that's more to do with engine braking and the slipper clutch than application of the rear brake.
With modern day electronics, the rear brake is used not to control wheel spin and front end lift as it once was but more for tightening a line!
Some racers, Mich Doohan notably, was convinced that using the rear prior to heavy braking with the obvious front bias gave him an advantage as less dive occurred!!
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
So based on one turn, you feel they NEVER use the rear brake? I'll wager that they use it a bunch more than they don't..
I'll take that wager. If you're doing all of the things you're supposed to be doing on a sportbike: late braking, trailing through the turns, hanging off...you're not even in a position to be able to activate the rear brake during the majority of the time you're braking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Watch any of the top tier racers under hard braking at the end of the straights.. the bikes are sqauting and stopping hard with both tires on the ground.
The bikes are compressing the front end and extending the rear as weight transfers to the front. This whole "squatting" thing sounds to me like you think that when you depress the rear brake the rear compresses. That isn't the case, the weight still transfers to the front. AS an example of this, lets look at another kind of acceleration (yes deceleration is accleration): cars.

Mash the gas on a front wheel drive car, and what happens? The weight transfers to the back.

Mash the gas on a rear wheel drive car, and what happens? The weight transfers to the back.

conclusion: it doesn't matter what end the force is applied to, the weight transfer occurs the same.

Now because the rear brake is so much weaker than the front, a slight application doesn't transfer nearly as MUCH weight, but the effect is still happening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Some racers, Mich Doohan notably, was convinced that using the rear prior to heavy braking with the obvious front bias gave him an advantage as less dive occurred!!
The above sentence is what is actually happening. I have heard a few racers use the rear brake to only transfer a small amount of weight forward to begin to flatten the front tire and load the suspension. However, once you get on the front brakes, the dive still occurs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
The main reason for the invention of slipper clutches is because aggresive down shifts plus rear braking locked the tire...
If you had stopped this sentence before the word "plus" you would have been correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
oh, and "stomping the rear brake" shouldn't even be in your vocabulary.... like every input on any of the controls, smooth and controlled is the word
True. However considering the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, controlled modulation of the rear brake using an ankle that's also trying to support body weight attached to a leg that's trying to squeeze a tank or hang off is much, much more difficult than modulating a finger that has nothing else to do. Not to mention that, as previously discussed, the amount of rear brake necessary to lock the rear decreases as the weight transfers to the front. Essentially you're put in a situation where its better to avoid using it as the amount of attention it requires is just simply too much compared to the possible benefit it might provide (which is AT BEST 20% of total effort, and under hard braking almost negligible).





Jesus, I hope I made that all clear.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Some racers, Mich Doohan notably, was convinced that using the rear prior to heavy braking with the obvious front bias gave him an advantage as less dive occurred!!
Thats the point so many miss.. use the rear BEFORE the front.. if you are hard on the front the rear is already light and the rear does no good..

Also.. easing off the front and using the rear to trail brake allows the front tire to do less work but still control your speed
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I'll take that wager. If you're doing all of the things you're supposed to be doing on a sportbike: late braking, trailing through the turns, hanging off...you're not even in a position to be able to activate the rear brake during the majority of the time you're braking.



The bikes are compressing the front end and extending the rear as weight transfers to the front. This whole "squatting" thing sounds to me like you think that when you depress the rear brake the rear compresses. That isn't the case, the weight still transfers to the front. AS an example of this, lets look at another kind of acceleration (yes deceleration is accleration): cars.

Mash the gas on a front wheel drive car, and what happens? The weight transfers to the back.

Mash the gas on a rear wheel drive car, and what happens? The weight transfers to the back.

conclusion: it doesn't matter what end the force is applied to, the weight transfer occurs the same.

Now because the rear brake is so much weaker than the front, a slight application doesn't transfer nearly as MUCH weight, but the effect is still happening.



If you had stopped this sentence before the word "plus" you would have been correct.



True. However considering the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, controlled modulation of the rear brake using an ankle that's also trying to support body weight attached to a leg that's trying to squeeze a tank or hang off is much, much more difficult than modulating a finger that has nothing else to do. Not to mention that, as previously discussed, the amount of rear brake necessary to lock the rear decreases as the weight transfers to the front. Essentially you're put in a situation where its better to avoid using it as the amount of attention it requires is just simply too much compared to the possible benefit it might provide (which is AT BEST 20% of total effort, and under hard braking almost negligible).





Jesus, I hope I made that all clear.

So let me get this straight: Leave the front brake alone and mash the out of the rear?
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:35 AM   #37
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So let me get this straight: Leave the front brake alone and mash the out of the rear?
If you don't like your wedding band, yes.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:46 AM   #38
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lmao.... that was a lot of reading about brakes!!!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO let me get this straight!
they only put rear brakes for you not to use them?? right!?
is it just because we're bad that we never use rear brakes??
or is it because WE'RE FAST!!! that we should never use rear brakes??

LOL... I'm just with you popo... Its all good sir!
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I'll take that wager. If you're doing all of the things you're supposed to be doing on a sportbike: late braking, trailing through the turns, hanging off...you're not even in a position to be able to activate the rear brake during the majority of the time you're braking.

Difficult on right handers, less so on lefts, not impossible.. most of your braking is supposed to be done prior to the turn and back on the gas anyhow... the best of the best say you're either on the gas or on the brakes.. anything in between is wasted time


The bikes are compressing the front end and extending the rear as weight transfers to the front. This whole "squatting" thing sounds to me like you think that when you depress the rear brake the rear compresses. That isn't the case, the weight still transfers to the front.

True, the weight does transfer.. but when you apply the rear brake the rear of the bike goes down, actually the entire bike "squats" ...just like it actually rises when power is applied.. with proper suspension set up...


The above sentence is what is actually happening. I have heard a few racers use the rear brake to only transfer a small amount of weight forward to begin to flatten the front tire and load the suspension. However, once you get on the front brakes, the dive still occurs.

Yes, but if you have taken some of the inertia out of the chassis, the dive is lessened..


True. However considering the dynamics of riding a motorcycle, controlled modulation of the rear brake using an ankle that's also trying to support body weight attached to a leg that's trying to squeeze a tank or hang off is much, much more difficult than modulating a finger that has nothing else to do. Not to mention that, as previously discussed, the amount of rear brake necessary to lock the rear decreases as the weight transfers to the front. Essentially you're put in a situation where its better to avoid using it as the amount of attention it requires is just simply too much compared to the possible benefit it might provide (which is AT BEST 20% of total effort, and under hard braking almost negligible).

Funny, everything about riding a bike fast and at the limit is "difficult".. and I prefer to use every tool at my disposal rather than discount it because its "difficult"..

Then again, I've been riding bikes for 35+ years and still learn and re-learn every time I get on.





Jesus, I hope I made that all clear.
Clear as mud!
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:54 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch
Difficult on right handers, less so on lefts, not impossible.. most of your braking is supposed to be done prior to the turn and back on the gas anyhow... the best of the best say you're either on the gas or on the brakes.. anything in between is wasted time



This isn't the way most people are riding these bikes anymore. They're leaving their braking as late as possible, and staying on them all the way to the apex.




I guess in important note is that none of what I'm talking about applies to street riding
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