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Old 05-19-2011, 12:13 PM   #121
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:42 PM   #122
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Wow what a thread.
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #123
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I am going to try to give an honest explanation though i know it will still fall on deaf ears for some.

I know this COC recognition thing is an issue with some of you. Nothing i say will ever change that. Our patches are sacred. We would shed blood for them. Most riders would not shed blood and it is just an appearence they want to reflect or fashion statement. In our world you have to earn the patch, it is not freely given. Because of that, we dont like seeing anybody and their brother n law wearing something that looks like what we spent months or years trying to earn. If you have not experienced it, you would not understand. The COC recognition again is just to make sure those wearing one understand protocol. The first step of acknowlodgement of that understanding it is taking the right step in following it.

If you saw a soldier that had a easy stateside job and he was wearing something that looked like a Purple Heart or Medal of Honor but wasn't, he would be thought of as a poser. Even though he might look like a war battle experienced soldier and smell like one, he isnt. He might have the uniform, he might have something that looks like a medal that was earned, but he is not the same soldier that fought in battle, watched brothers die on the battlefield, sweat blood, tears, and was ready willing and able to lay his life down for his brothers in arms. If the second soldier I described saw the first soldier sporting those replica medals, he would probably beat the out of him and take them away for dis-respecting the honor it takes to earn them.

Secondly, as I have said before, It gives us an oppurtunity to make sure no yahoos that will cause chaos and reak havoc on the public are going to do it looking like they may be one of us, because of obvious reasons. Who do you think they are going to look toward.

Thirdly, we promote unity amoung clubs, support each other, and are able to have a stronger louder voice being unified. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease and we can have a better effect fighting legislative issues, promoting motorist awareness, and providing a better public image of bikers if we are unified.

This is why the COC has expanded to the COC&I.
(Confederation of Clubs and Independents)
If you ride two wheels, I does not matter if you ride a sport bike or cruiser, a metric or a Harley, are an Independent or a Patch Holder. We have several things in common besides motorcycles. We share like conerns about patriotism and love for our great country, we enjoy the freedoms granted to us by our Constitution, we want to make the roads safer for us, our brothers, our families, our friends, and bikers we don't even know. We want to have a support system when we reach out and need help for someone we love. We want this not only for ourselves but we want to preserve it for future generations so that they can all come to enjoy the lifestyle we are so passionate about. Being free, riding the roads, and enjoying all that life has to offer along the journey. Being a biker.

There will be some that will never understand. I cant change that. All I am doing with this post is trying to give an honest explanation to some of those that have an open mind and never really had it explained because they never asked the question, or nobody took the time to try to explain it.

Ya'll Ride Safe and Ride Free
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:59 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostIncMCBear View Post
I am going to try to give an honest explanation though i know it will still fall on deaf ears for some.

I know this COC recognition thing is an issue with some of you. Nothing i say will ever change that. Our patches are sacred. We would shed blood for them. Most riders would not shed blood and it is just an appearence they want to reflect or fashion statement. In our world you have to earn the patch, it is not freely given. Because of that, we dont like seeing anybody and their brother n law wearing something that looks like what we spent months or years trying to earn. If you have not experienced it, you would not understand. The COC recognition again is just to make sure those wearing one understand protocol. The first step of acknowlodgement of that understanding it is taking the right step in following it.

If you saw a soldier that had a easy stateside job and he was wearing something that looked like a Purple Heart or Medal of Honor but wasn't, he would be thought of as a poser. Even though he might look like a war battle experienced soldier and smell like one, he isnt. He might have the uniform, he might have something that looks like a medal that was earned, but he is not the same soldier that fought in battle, watched brothers die on the battlefield, sweat blood, tears, and was ready willing and able to lay his life down for his brothers in arms. If the second soldier I described saw the first soldier sporting those replica medals, he would probably beat the out of him and take them away for dis-respecting the honor it takes to earn them.

Secondly, as I have said before, It gives us an oppurtunity to make sure no yahoos that will cause chaos and reak havoc on the public are going to do it looking like they may be one of us, because of obvious reasons. Who do you think they are going to look toward.

Thirdly, we promote unity amoung clubs, support each other, and are able to have a stronger louder voice being unified. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease and we can have a better effect fighting legislative issues, promoting motorist awareness, and providing a better public image of bikers if we are unified.

This is why the COC has expanded to the COC&I.
(Confederation of Clubs and Independents)
If you ride two wheels, I does not matter if you ride a sport bike or cruiser, a metric or a Harley, are an Independent or a Patch Holder. We have several things in common besides motorcycles. We share like conerns about patriotism and love for our great country, we enjoy the freedoms granted to us by our Constitution, we want to make the roads safer for us, our brothers, our families, our friends, and bikers we don't even know. We want to have a support system when we reach out and need help for someone we love. We want this not only for ourselves but we want to preserve it for future generations so that they can all come to enjoy the lifestyle we are so passionate about. Being free, riding the roads, and enjoying all that life has to offer along the journey. Being a biker.

There will be some that will never understand. I cant change that. All I am doing with this post is trying to give an honest explanation to some of those that have an open mind and never really had it explained because they never asked the question, or nobody took the time to try to explain it.

Ya'll Ride Safe and Ride Free
You forgot the women - we all loves the women...

- even the female clubs loves the women...
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:14 PM   #125
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The thing I take issue with is (and I don't know if this is everyone, just certain clubs, or just rogue members out there) there seems to be this idea that if you decide you like your own design idea that resembles a 3 piece patch, you HAVE to get it "approved and recognized" by the COC before wearing it around town, regardless of whether you call yourselves a club/riding group/whatever, and if not you may be met with certain hostility. If so, it seems pretty hypocritical to in one breath say that you're all for protecting riders and their freedoms they should be allowed to enjoy in this country, while in the next saying that the freedom to wear any design you so happen to like while riding is null and void.
+10

LOL and biker patch ≠ Purple Heart or Medal of Honor

I get your point of the feeling of pride you get but you may want to come up with a better analogy.
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:19 PM   #126
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This is why the COC has expanded to the COC&I.
(Confederation of Clubs and Independents)



Ya'll Ride Safe and Ride Free

I like the Independents part... nothings free though....



(no disrespect or either part)

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Old 05-19-2011, 03:20 PM   #127
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Wow what a thread.
I know, how did it get this long with no MFing or getting locked?

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Old 05-19-2011, 03:24 PM   #128
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C'mon guys!!!!

Did you read the information at the links posted by Bear at the beginning of this thread?

Please, do some research and educate yourself before making comments.

http://www.rcvsmc.net/index.html

Quote:
Why does the Dominant club control who wears back patches?
Written By Chuck (Witnesstoo), Bikers For Christ, Elder.

Many are apparently impressed with how "bad" they are ... there are people like that all over the world. They tend to gravitate together and form groups, gangs ... whatever you want to label them. They can present a real problem in a society such as ours where intervention by law enforcement is an "after the fact" event. Every little batch of a dozen or so "bad bikers" would literally make it for "mom & pop" on their Goldwing to go ridin' ... or any citizen and his gal passing through would be at risk in any area "ruled" by such a collection of "bad ". There is really nothing of an effective preventive nature that the cops can do about such things ... you can not arrest someone for what they "might" do, only for what they have already done. Like it or not, it really does not matter, because it does not change the reality ... the thing that makes it safe for "Mom & Pop", or the young citizen and his gal, to go essentially anywhere they please is the dominate club arrangement. Dominate clubs have a vested interest in ensuring undue attention is not focused upon the biker world ... and they do not have "restrictions" on waiting until after the felony has been committed by some group of bozos to take action.

This arrangement works ... and it neither wants nor needs your approval ... it just "is".

Second:

Bikers are not the most favored group in this world ... again just reality ... you can not believe that, but it will not affect the reality. The groups that have faced the brunt of the negative aspects of that reality over the years are those at the end of the spectrum that includes people whose "life" is the biker lifestyle, not the weekend rubbie.

The bottom line is that there is a whole subculture of our society that has paid the price, and continues to pay the price for the "lifestyle" that some want to live and that some want to emulate. It is their world and it is no different than any other subculture that has ever existed in history ... to deny that, no matter how much one might not like it, is simply foolish. It is the equivalent of stepping willingly into a tribal culture in Africa and intentionally violating taboos held by the tribe just because you don't believe in the same things they do. It is the equivalent of putting on a Rebel Flag and intentionally walking down the street in Compton or Watts ... it may be legal, the Rebel Flag may be something we think is honorable beyond mention, but to intentionally fly that flag in the domain of those who see it as a sign of oppression is foolishness on the same order as wearing a black power T-shirt at a KKK meeting.

Finally, I have met some truly "bad" individuals in my lifetime ... and they seldom feel the need to advertise how "bad" they are ... just my observation that those who "think" they are "bad" eventually encounter someone with a bigger fist, bigger knife, or bigger gun ...

John Q. Public does not care what bikers do within their own realm and for the most part can't tell the difference between an outlaw club and a Christian riding association ... they all have a patch and are on two wheels and they don't give a hoot what the patch says.

MC members whose world is the biker culture end up answering for the behavior of all ... I'll give some examples from my own experience ...

A local club, an old time MC, not an outlaw club, in an area I frequented at the time, has a biker campground ... there are a lot of events held there ... the area around it has grown up with a collection of bedroom community homes on like 3-5 acres ... the county road into the place goes past several such home sites ... there are signs as soon as you turn onto the county road asking bikers to keep the speed and noise down to a reasonable level ... I attended three or four secular biker events at that location one year, and there was no complaints from the neighbors. Then I attended a local Christian Biker function at the campground. Two or three "new" members "new" to "being biker types" (yes there are wannabees all over) were so proud of their loud pipes that they just had to show them off ... ended up with the County Deputy showing up that night.

The locals did not give one hoot "who" caused this problem, it was simply bikers with a patch. It caused undue oversight for the local MC and everyone else that put on or attended an event there for several months afterward. It caused great damage to relationships made by that local MC with the locals and with the local LEOs.

For the other example, I'll change all the names involved ---

There was this local brand specific club ... the Airfoil Ridin' Fools (hopefully there ain't no such group <BG>) ... well the ARF boys have on all their weekend riding "biker atire" and go to a local tourist area, where they get a little loaded and start insulting tourists on the street ... then they ended up causing a ruckus at a local bar.

Well the local business folks, local citizens, and the tourist don't know ARF from a 1% club ... but the locals do know there is a bunch of local 1% folks they don't particularly like anyway ... so they point fingers at the 1%Ride Smart. The local cops know it was not the 1%Ride Smart, but they know the people involved are really a bunch of rubs and such from a nearby town, that will just cause them grief if they try to press anything from a legal angle ... and the city council is demanding the cops "do something", so they have the perfect solution: make the local citizens and the city council happy by rousting a few 1%Ride Smart ... and by promising the 1%Ride Smart that it will happen anytime and every time the LEOs get any heat about patch wearing "biker gangs", they sort of set the stage to make sure the 1%Ride Smart are responsible for policing anyone in the area wearing a patch unless the local 1%Ride Smart want to answer for the actions of others.

These are real events, similar things happen all over the US and the world. That is the reality, anyone with a patch can cause any local group with any kind of patch to be a target for their actions, and the cops in general will target those who give them the most buck for a bang (no I did not mean bang for a buck ... this is about money ... you can get federal funds for helping "round up" 1%Ride Smart that are classified as "gangs" by the federal powers that be, there ain't no money in rounding up a bunch of obnoxious ARF or wanna-bes).
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:29 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST675 View Post
+10

LOL and biker patch ≠ Purple Heart or Medal of Honor

I get your point of the feeling of pride you get but you may want to come up with a better analogy.
You obviously missed the point.
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:42 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by LostIncMCBear View Post
I am going to try to give an honest explanation though i know it will still fall on deaf ears for some.

I know this COC recognition thing is an issue with some of you. Nothing i say will ever change that. Our patches are sacred. We would shed blood for them. Most riders would not shed blood and it is just an appearence they want to reflect or fashion statement. In our world you have to earn the patch, it is not freely given. Because of that, we dont like seeing anybody and their brother n law wearing something that looks like what we spent months or years trying to earn. If you have not experienced it, you would not understand. The COC recognition again is just to make sure those wearing one understand protocol. The first step of acknowlodgement of that understanding it is taking the right step in following it.

If you saw a soldier that had a easy stateside job and he was wearing something that looked like a Purple Heart or Medal of Honor but wasn't, he would be thought of as a poser. Even though he might look like a war battle experienced soldier and smell like one, he isnt. He might have the uniform, he might have something that looks like a medal that was earned, but he is not the same soldier that fought in battle, watched brothers die on the battlefield, sweat blood, tears, and was ready willing and able to lay his life down for his brothers in arms. If the second soldier I described saw the first soldier sporting those replica medals, he would probably beat the out of him and take them away for dis-respecting the honor it takes to earn them.
I get the whole fraternal brotherhood and everything. What I'm saying is, say SBN decides they want to start an official club. We, as SBN, get to decide what the membership criteria/rituals/etc. are to gain membership into the club and to receive a patch. What one club does will probably not be identical to what the next does, and thus it's real hard to say what one or another has had to go through in order to earn their patch, especially if you've never been through that particular club.

Your example is more akin to someone sewing up their own Banditos patch or something like that, without ever having gong through the process, etc. I can totally understand the animosity towards that, as he's truely posing. Someone starting their own brotherhood amonst those he loves is no disrepect towards another already established brotherhood.

Take ScooterTrash as an example. Highway Horrors I think they call themselves - probably not a 3 piece patch, but no less a brotherhood amongst him and his fellow members, and no less loving of riding or other riders in general. How is that any different than any other group? If their patch had been made in 3 pieces without OKing it with the COC first though, then they'd have problems?

Quote:
Secondly, as I have said before, It gives us an oppurtunity to make sure no yahoos that will cause chaos and reak havoc on the public are going to do it looking like they may be one of us, because of obvious reasons. Who do you think they are going to look toward.
The problem with that is there are a lot of bikers that don't know who the COC is, or many of the clubs associated with it, let alone most other cagers. They're either going to see the biker and point to all bikers as the bad guy, or see the patch and point to all people with that patch, which would look bad on that particular group, not all groups as a whole. I suppose I could see being worried that people would think any 3 piece looks like any other 3 piece, but they tend to differentiate enough.

Quote:
Thirdly, we promote unity amoung clubs, support each other, and are able to have a stronger louder voice being unified. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease and we can have a better effect fighting legislative issues, promoting motorist awareness, and providing a better public image of bikers if we are unified.

This is why the COC has expanded to the COC&I.
(Confederation of Clubs and Independents)
If you ride two wheels, I does not matter if you ride a sport bike or cruiser, a metric or a Harley, are an Independent or a Patch Holder. We have several things in common besides motorcycles. We share like conerns about patriotism and love for our great country, we enjoy the freedoms granted to us by our Constitution, we want to make the roads safer for us, our brothers, our families, our friends, and bikers we don't even know. We want to have a support system when we reach out and need help for someone we love. We want this not only for ourselves but we want to preserve it for future generations so that they can all come to enjoy the lifestyle we are so passionate about. Being free, riding the roads, and enjoying all that life has to offer along the journey. Being a biker.

There will be some that will never understand. I cant change that. All I am doing with this post is trying to give an honest explanation to some of those that have an open mind and never really had it explained because they never asked the question, or nobody took the time to try to explain it.
I get that. But trying to force someone to be a part of your group just because they're part of another group of their own is a terrible way to rally interest to your cause. Again, I think we're on the same page on wanting to enjoy the freedoms of the country and the passion for riding and for one-another, but one of those Constitutional freedoms is being allowed to sew what the ever I want on the back of whatever jacket I want without catching any flak for it (obviously without actually infringing on trademarks, copyrights, etc. etc. - i.e. not stealing the patch of another club). There is no freedom in being "forced" to be a part of something you didn't seek out yourself.

I don't know, perhaps something is just getting lost in the text that's hard to type out. I find myself wondering if I've gotten my point across. But the whole "you can't have a club unless you ok it with ours first" attitude that seems to exist seems very counter productive to the ideals you're trying to promote.

Quote:
Ya'll Ride Safe and Ride Free
Thank you. And you do the same.

And I'm not trying to disrespect you personally or single you out or anything of the sort, just so we're clear. In fact, I actually appreciate you being here because you're very well spoken and make a good representative for your groups.
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #131
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Take ScooterTrash as an example. Highway Horrors I think they call themselves - probably not a 3 piece patch, but no less a brotherhood amongst him and his fellow members, and no less loving of riding or other riders in general. How is that any different than any other group? If their patch had been made in 3 pieces without OKing it with the COC first though, then they'd have problems?
Yep - and if you understood the significance of all three parts of the patch, you'd understand why it would be an issue.

All three pieces are earned by the individual, and they all tell a distinct story about the club. The club earns the MC designation as well, which tells other clubs that they're not just a group of "weekend warriors" who went and bought a bike and a leather jacket.

Be happy to answer any of your questions in person as best I can if you like.

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Originally Posted by SpeedCheeser View Post
but one of those Constitutional freedoms is being allowed to sew what the ever I want on the back of whatever jacket I want without catching any flak for it
Not QUITE.

You have the freedom to do this without catching any flak from the state. The response of a private individual on the other hand is neither dictated nor constrained by the Constitution.

Fact is, if it weren't for groups who are part of the CoC, you wouldn't be able to fly any colors, 3-piece or otherwise, without catching a lot of flak from local law enforcement.
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:26 PM   #132
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Yep - and if you understood the significance of all three parts of the patch, you'd understand why it would be an issue.

All three pieces are earned by the individual, and they all tell a distinct story about the club. The club earns the MC designation as well, which tells other clubs that they're not just a group of "weekend warriors" who went and bought a bike and a leather jacket.
Right, but of course a particular rider's experiences and sentiments to his patch are likely unique to that club that he's in. Should one fraternity give another harassment because they had to be paddled by 27 men each while the other only had to do household chores for a week? Or is that just part of the cost of joining a particular organization? Or if you had to do essentially nothing. Someone has to start the organization. SBN is gonna be huge. You'll see.


Quote:
Not QUITE.

You have the freedom to do this without catching any flak from the state. The response of a private individual on the other hand is neither dictated nor constrained by the Constitution.

Fact is, if it weren't for groups who are part of the CoC, you wouldn't be able to fly any colors, 3-piece or otherwise, without catching a lot of flak from local law enforcement.

Of course. It just comes across as a bit hypocritical to say on one hand you love Constitutional freedoms, and then on the other that you're going to catch for doing so. Know what I mean?


Quote:
Be happy to answer any of your questions in person as best I can if you like.
Perhaps. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to sitting down over a beer some time. You'll have to allow me to come by car though...thieves got my .

I'll still wear my 3 piece patch though so you'll know it's me!
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:36 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedCheeser View Post
Right, but of course a particular rider's experiences and sentiments to his patch are likely unique to that club that he's in. Should one fraternity give another harassment because they had to be paddled by 27 men each while the other only had to do household chores for a week? Or is that just part of the cost of joining a particular organization? Or if you had to do essentially nothing. Someone has to start the organization. SBN is gonna be huge. You'll see.





Of course. It just comes across as a bit hypocritical to say on one hand you love Constitutional freedoms, and then on the other that you're going to catch for doing so. Know what I mean?




Perhaps. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to sitting down over a beer some time. You'll have to allow me to come by car though...thieves got my .

I'll still wear my 3 piece patch though so you'll know it's me!
I dont mind if you show up in a cage - i wont laugh at you...too much....
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:43 PM   #134
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:30 AM   #135
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I didn't have an interest in Frats in college, and I don't have an interest in MC clubs now.

I can appreciate that other people enjoy the benefits of joining up though. And I'm fine with that so long as nobody is infringing on anyone else's rights.

My wife rushed a sorority and they force a lot of legal paperwork on rushees/members to protect their "secrets" from getting out. I don't know anything about MCs but if they are anything like that they probably do things that they don't want the outside population to know about.

Either way, so long as nobody is getting hurt or infringing on anyone elses rights, I could care less.

And even if the "protecting motorcyclist rights" is just a side part of the deal, it still matters...
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:10 AM   #136
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:17 AM   #137
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:44 AM   #138
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What i dont get. Is whyd you want to start a MC with patches, but not be involved with other MC's? Naturally you're going to share similar interests and beliefs and you will gravitate to the COC...etc.
I assume that would be the logical progression.

However, had it not been for this forum, and only 2 threads in the 2-3 years I've been around, I would have never known that the COC even exists. Had I (my friends and I) decided we were going to form a club, got everything together and started riding around, people make it sound like other club bad would come up to you and threaten you etc. for not going through the COC FIRST, as if there's some sort of legal authority on the matter. Someone coming to you and saying "we're in charge, so you gotta do it our way" is the sorta thing that would make someone wanna just be like "well you. We're doing our thing; you go do your thing." The whole catching more flyes with honey sort of thing. If I'm making any sense at all.
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:09 AM   #139
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young kid gets bullied by old kid... when young kid grows up, he bullies some young kid.

The Law says do it my way, MC clubs are born and challenge, MC clubs get big, now all of you undelings must do it our way.

human nature.
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:21 AM   #140
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ok, I'll throw out my 2 pennies. I can't believe the analogy was made comparing a motorcycle patch to a Purple Heart. A whole world of difference in how that is earned, with a of a lot more sacrifice to one vs. the other.


secondly, what happens to a "club" that fails to get recognition from the COC? do they get a stern finger wagging at?
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