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Old 05-19-2011, 09:30 PM   #81
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I stand corrected. How the heck are they even going to know a person has had their M endorsement even AFTER they have pulled you over. All the more reason to be against this proposed law.

BTW, whatever happened to Pinball? I haven't seen him back around in here after I hit him with some cold hard factual statistics.
I would imagine they could run your DL# through their computers and come up with that date?
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:43 PM   #82
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I kinda think its a good idea. I had a friend that bought a bike and end up dropping it under 10mphs within the first two weeks, and the next day i got a text that he was riding with a passenger the next day. I had a nice talk to him, but what if he went down with her.
either way my sv1000s seems to fit all the rules, and i been riding for 3 years so i feel safe

Why not make it that if you want to ride with a passenger you have to take a safety course with the passenger. Maybe include a discount on insurance also could off set the cost.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:52 PM   #83
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I kinda think its a good idea. I had a friend that bought a bike and end up dropping it under 10mphs within the first two weeks, and the next day i got a text that he was riding with a passenger the next day. I had a nice talk to him, but what if he went down with her.
either way my sv1000s seems to fit all the rules, and i been riding for 3 years so i feel safe

Why not make it that if you want to ride with a passenger you have to take a safety course with the passenger. Maybe include a discount on insurance also could off set the cost.
Why not leave it alone and not do a thing? Do we really need the government to step in to make us stop and think about whether or not we should jump on the back of a bike with someone who's only been riding for 2 weeks?

It's a trick question, because it's a catch-22. If the answer is yes, then the answer is no, because natural selection needs to run its course and cleanse the gene pool up a bit me thinks.

Oh, and there's no good reason for it to be descriminatory at that.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:56 PM   #84
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I don't even run passenger pegs or a seat soooo.... not going to affect me but just one more thing to get tagged over.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:35 PM   #85
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I kinda think its a good idea. I had a friend that bought a bike and end up dropping it under 10mphs within the first two weeks, and the next day i got a text that he was riding with a passenger the next day. I had a nice talk to him, but what if he went down with her.
either way my sv1000s seems to fit all the rules, and i been riding for 3 years so i feel safe

Why not make it that if you want to ride with a passenger you have to take a safety course with the passenger. Maybe include a discount on insurance also could off set the cost.
Would a trunk monkey pop out and stop him from taking a passenger or a leo suddenly appear?
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedCheeser View Post
I would imagine they could run your DL# through their computers and come up with that date?
OK. So they pull you over because you have what they define, or think is defined as a "sportbike." You're there on the side of the road for giggles. Now, we understand what we do isn't "safe," but the side of the road is just plain dangerous. It's just a little bit of time wasted, right? What if they can't tell? I moved here from another state, does it say now?

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I kinda think its a good idea. I had a friend that bought a bike and end up dropping it under 10mphs within the first two weeks, and the next day i got a text that he was riding with a passenger the next day. I had a nice talk to him, but what if he went down with her.
either way my sv1000s seems to fit all the rules, and i been riding for 3 years so i feel safe

Why not make it that if you want to ride with a passenger you have to take a safety course with the passenger. Maybe include a discount on insurance also could off set the cost.
This bill, how it is written doesn't have an education component.

This bill, how it is written is against a specific type of motorcycle. They right now don't define different types of cars... sedan, coupe, etc. Why define a specific type of motorcycle? And, once it is defined for one it is VERY easy to modify to take that definition out and make it all motorcycles.

I understand what they were trying to accomplish. But, how this is written isn't going to get there.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:18 PM   #87
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I stand corrected. How the heck are they even going to know a person has had their M endorsement even AFTER they have pulled you over. All the more reason to be against this proposed law.

BTW, whatever happened to Pinball? I haven't seen him back around in here after I hit him with some cold hard factual statistics.
Statistics don't scare me. I just haven't been monitoring threads in which I've posted. Unfortunately, statistics are not cold hard numbers. You can make them say whatever you want to. I was too lazy to do the math in earlier posts, and after doing so, I stand corrected. Not, however, by the pretty pink statistics you posted, but by using real numbers in conjunction with the percentages you provided. You have to use real numbers with statistics to make them mean anything, so here are some real numbers for you....

According to the 2010 Census, the US population was 308 million. Of those, 20% were under 14 (61 million), 67% are in the 18-64 age group (206.36 million) and 13% are 65+ (40.04 million). The median age is 36.5 years old, so we have 154 million above and below that. The 14 and under age group isn't going to apply here. Using the median age (and subtracting the 14 and under age group) you are left with 93 million below 36.5 and 154 million over 36.5. If the numbers were adjusted to below 30 and over 30, the numbers would get smaller and larger respectively.

Now lets talk motorcycles. There are approximately 4 million (registered) motorcycles on the road in the US. According to the NHTSA stats you quoted, 22.1% (884, 000) are ridden by those under 30 and 72.3% (2.89 million) are ridden by those over 30. Since NHTSA gives us a breakdown of rider age that is similar to the population median age, let's use that. That gives us 31% (1.24 million) under 35 who ride and 63.4% (2.54 million) over 35 that ride. Now that the Algebra is over....

0.013% of the population under 35 rides, and 0.016% of the population over 35 rides. Adjust the numbers to above 30/under 30 and the split will probably be more like 40% under and 60% over. (I can't confirm this, because I cannot find data on the exact population breakdown by age.) Throw the new numbers in (along with the corresponding breakdown from NHTSA), and it comes out to 0.014% under 30 and 0.015% over 30 that ride.

The remaining 5.6% of riders cannot just be "thrown in" with a particular age group. It changes the outcome too much. If you add it to the under 35 group in the 35/35 split, the numbers come out closer, but the over 35 group still has a higher percentage of riders. If you add it to the under 30 group in the 30/30 split, the percentage under 30 exceeds that in the over 30 group. The 5.6% cannot be verified, so it is essentially meaningless data.

Everything I have stated in this post DOES NOT MEAN A THING when trying to determine risk groups for riders, which is why you cannot use the percentages in NHTSA as a basis for argument. There are too many other variables, such as type of bike per age group, years of riding experience, miles ridden, protective gear worn, marital status, any children, and employment status. ALL of these things need to be considered, and I'm sure there are more that I did not list. This is basic Algebra. You cannot come up with a definite answer until all the variables are accounted for. This is why I hate statistics. It takes a few shreds of data and bends them to suit a particular need.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:57 PM   #88
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Why not leave it alone and not do a thing? Do we really need the government to step in to make us stop and think about whether or not we should jump on the back of a bike with someone who's only been riding for 2 weeks?

It's a trick question, because it's a catch-22. If the answer is yes, then the answer is no, because natural selection needs to run its course and cleanse the gene pool up a bit me thinks.

Oh, and there's no good reason for it to be descriminatory at that.
+1 for natural selection, but let me be hypothetical, here. First, not many guys trying to impress a girl with their new bikes are going to tell her that he's only been riding for 3 days. Should said chickadee ask? Certainly, but she probably won't get the truth. Even if she does, will she even realize the danger? I stated earlier that most people who do not ride don't truly understand the dangers of riding a motorcycle alone...much less with a passenger.

Now for the hypothetical part. Let's say that 1 out of 1000 riders with less than 2 years experience heed this law. We'll even say the guy has only been riding 2 weeks. Now let's say that your daughter does not know the law, runs into this guy out and about somewhere and wants to go for a ride. (Doesn't matter how you raise them...your kids are going to do the same stuff you did at their age...and girls love bikes) He says "No," because since he doesn't have enough experience it is against the law. He rides away alone. Someone slams on their brakes in front of him, and being inexperienced, he locks it up and slams into them. Now....repeat scenario with your daughter on the back of that bike. The fact that your daughter found the 1 guy out of 1000 that obeyed the law kept her from getting hurt/dead. Natural selection, in this case, really isn't all that appealing.

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Originally Posted by azoomm View Post
OK. So they pull you over because you have what they define, or think is defined as a "sportbike." You're there on the side of the road for giggles. Now, we understand what we do isn't "safe," but the side of the road is just plain dangerous. It's just a little bit of time wasted, right? What if they can't tell? I moved here from another state, does it say now?



This bill, how it is written doesn't have an education component.

This bill, how it is written is against a specific type of motorcycle. They right now don't define different types of cars... sedan, coupe, etc. Why define a specific type of motorcycle? And, once it is defined for one it is VERY easy to modify to take that definition out and make it all motorcycles.

I understand what they were trying to accomplish. But, how this is written isn't going to get there.
The sportbike specific part of this bill is stupid. It needs to apply to all, or none. Discrimination me off. I think the real question is whether or not riding 2-up will be considered probable cause for a traffic stop. I do not think it will. If you're squidding 2-up, that would more likely be PC, but definitely debatable. If you're pulled over for speeding while riding 2-up and don't have 2 years on your endorsement, it will possibly come into play...and that's IF the officer decides to check it.

The reason I bring up PC is simple. I will use the CHL as an example. Before you guys start...I realize there is no time requirement for CHL holders. It's the PC part I will be referencing. An officer seeing a bulge under someone's shirt is not PC to conduct a search. It could easily be a cell phone in a belt holster. If an officer overhears a conversation between friends, and one asks the other if he has his gun on him and he says "Yes," (that's a no-no conversation, btw) and the one that answers "Yes" has a bulge under his shirt, then it is PC to detain, investigate and obtain proper identification.

A lot of these seemingly stupid laws are not intended for those with common sense, as they are things people with common sense would do, anyway. They are written for the retarded masses.

There are a lot of anti-law people here. If you don't like laws...move to Holland. The only thing illegal there is murder.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:14 AM   #89
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The vast majority of motorcycle wrecks I go to are cruisers.
That is something that will be fairly location-specific and cannot be generalized. It leaves too many things open. City/urban, single/multi-vehicle, number of cruisers vs. sportbikes in the area, etc. See my above post about statistics....you have to factor in ALL variables before getting a definitive answer.
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:22 AM   #90
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+1 for natural selection, but let me be hypothetical, here. First, not many guys trying to impress a girl with their new bikes are going to tell her that he's only been riding for 3 days. Should said chickadee ask? Certainly, but she probably won't get the truth. Even if she does, will she even realize the danger? I stated earlier that most people who do not ride don't truly understand the dangers of riding a motorcycle alone...much less with a passenger.

Now for the hypothetical part. Let's say that 1 out of 1000 riders with less than 2 years experience heed this law. We'll even say the guy has only been riding 2 weeks. Now let's say that your daughter does not know the law, runs into this guy out and about somewhere and wants to go for a ride. (Doesn't matter how you raise them...your kids are going to do the same stuff you did at their age...and girls love bikes) He says "No," because since he doesn't have enough experience it is against the law. He rides away alone. Someone slams on their brakes in front of him, and being inexperienced, he locks it up and slams into them. Now....repeat scenario with your daughter on the back of that bike. The fact that your daughter found the 1 guy out of 1000 that obeyed the law kept her from getting hurt/dead. Natural selection, in this case, really isn't all that appealing.
Natural selection isn't appealing in near any scenario. Stupid is stupid. Knowledge is power. If it's really that big a deal, then perhaps there should be more time spent on driver's ed. classes teaching people about motorcycles awareness and the dangers that being a passenger on one can bring. People are (or at least should be) capable of making decisions for themselves. How far will you let them keep stepping in to hold your hand and tell you what you should do on the chance that it MIGHT...MIGHT...protect you, before you just draw the line?

And don't you find it ironic that in one post you mention how statistics mean nothing, and in the next start using hypotheticals? We can go back and forth on hypotheticals all friggen day. Same scenario but in a sports car - may not turn out well. What if she's hanging out with someone who has a CHL who goes bat - time to ban CHLs and handguns?
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I always thought speedcheeser was a meth head with a fondness for dairy products.
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Old 05-20-2011, 02:29 PM   #91
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If it's really that big a deal, then perhaps there should be more time spent on driver's ed. classes teaching people about motorcycles awareness and the dangers that being a passenger on one can bring. People are (or at least should be) capable of making decisions for themselves.
Perhaps more motorcycle awareness should be covered in driver's ed., but unless they make driving a motorcycle part of standard driver's ed, going in-depth about the dangers will simply fall on deaf ears. A longer MSF has been brought up several times. Unfortunately, Challen brought it to our attention that a longer MSF did not help. By "not helping," I infer that he means there was no decrease in motorcycle injuries/fatalities. That means that more education on the matter did not change the outcome. If education does not help, the next step is to revise the law.

A good example of this is the 911 system. People call for an ambulance for a ton of stupid reasons. Some individuals call several times a week, and some even call every day. There have been numerous programs broadcast in an attempt to educate the public when calling for an ambulance is and is not appropriate. There was no change in the volume of 911 calls for ambulances, so a 911 abuse law was enacted.

I agree that people should be able to make their own decisions, even if the decisions put them in danger. It's generally accepted that the right to be stupid is a Constitutional right. What I simply do no understand is why people believe they have the right to make decisions that endanger others and then get when someone tells them they can't.

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And don't you find it ironic that in one post you mention how statistics mean nothing, and in the next start using hypotheticals? We can go back and forth on hypotheticals all friggen day. Same scenario but in a sports car - may not turn out well. What if she's hanging out with someone who has a CHL who goes bat - time to ban CHLs and handguns?
The hypothetical scenario I gave was simply to show that a lot of people believe in natural selection until it affects them. I used this proposed law as an example merely because it's the topic of this thread.

There have already been numerous bills (and there will be more) that have attempted to ban handguns specifically and firearms in general. Those aside, you can legally own a gun now, but there are laws you must follow in doing so. Here is something that (for now) you truly have a Constitutional right to do, yet there are laws governing your actions as to how you can exercise that right. Where is it written in the Constitution that you have the right to operate a motor vehicle at all, much less in a manner that puts others in danger? Please find it for me. I'd love to read it.

The only part of this law I agree with is the endorsement requirement. The rest, including it being sportbike specific, is ludicrous. Here's a non-vehicular example of why I am such a proponent of the experience restriction:

You do not want a construction worker who has been framing houses for only two weeks (with absolutely no other experience) to build the cabinets for your house. He is inexperienced building things with wood, and building cabinets takes much more skill than framing a house. He simply does not have the experience to do it properly.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:01 PM   #92
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The fact that your daughter found the 1 guy out of 1000 that obeyed the law kept her from getting hurt/dead. Natural selection, in this case, really isn't all that appealing.



There are a lot of anti-law people here. If you don't like laws...move to Holland. The only thing illegal there is murder.
Sure, natural selection in that scenario would not be appealing. But that sure the ain't a good enough reason for legislation. With your type of reasoning, EVERYTHING, and I do mean EVERYTHING would be regulated, legislated.

It's not that you have a lot of anti-law people. But instead, you have a load of constitutionalists. A lot of us around here understand the kind of governmental system was set up for us in this country by our fore fathers. It is because of that type of system that has made this country great and we understand once you tear down that type of system, that will be the downfall to this great nation of ours.
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:25 PM   #93
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Sure, natural selection in that scenario would not be appealing. But that sure the ain't a good enough reason for legislation. With your type of reasoning, EVERYTHING, and I do mean EVERYTHING would be regulated, legislated.

It's not that you have a lot of anti-law people. But instead, you have a load of constitutionalists. A lot of us around here understand the kind of governmental system was set up for us in this country by our fore fathers. It is because of that type of system that has made this country great and we understand once you tear down that type of system, that will be the downfall to this great nation of ours.
If this law violated a Constitutional right, I would be rabidly against it. You seem to be under the assumption that driving is a right. If it is, you should be opposed to every law that regulates operating a motor vehicle, not just this one...seat belts, annual safety inspections, speed limits, requiring an operator's license, etc.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:38 PM   #94
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How is this law coming????

anyone have updates?
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:41 PM   #95
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Although I dont agree with the law, its basically protecting young girls from hopping on the back of some squids "gixxer" and getting killed. Doesnt apply to me anyways so lfmao.
They should call this the Gixxer law.

It IS cause of them that this is going on, anyway.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:00 PM   #96
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:42 PM   #97
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^^. What he said... it is dead.
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:16 PM   #98
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They should call this the Gixxer law.

It IS cause of them that this is going on, anyway.
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