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Old 05-10-2011, 09:44 AM   #21
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I always thought I was supposed to scoot back on the seat to set up for a turn then I took the Ty class and he said .. why are you doing that??
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:46 AM   #22
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I like to go foward, then back, then foward, then back, foward, back......you get the picture.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I like to go foward, then back, then foward, then back, foward, back......you get the picture.
You have reverse on the Priller?
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:16 AM   #24
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You have reverse on the Priller?
It just seems that way from the sidelines.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCH View Post
For me, up on the tank when cornering. Within reason, the looser my arms are, the better I steer and react. It's about using the lower body to be the primary anchor via legs and core leave your arms and upper body relaxed and loose enough to steer precisely and not be stiff-arming it. Fewer rear/chassis dynamics are transferred to the front when you're not maintaining a stiff armed position, helps keep the bike settled and is a whole lot better as far as not inducing or worsening headshake on exit. The more flexible and loose my elbows are, the better I do. Up on the tank and closer to the clipons helps this for me.

Also, as I'm using my outside leg against the tank to be a primary anchor, closer to the front puts more thigh against the tank and keeps me solid and planted generally (I recall a time or two that the outside foot slipped on the rearset - don't know if being up on the tank helped keep me on the bike, but I didn't come off the bike).

Some of the best riding advice I ever got was years ago from an old Georgia friend of mine that teaches for Schwantz at the Suzuki GP school. He told me to pay attention to my elbows. It sounded silly at first, but it's sound and works on the street and the track. Smooth finesse and measured control come from smooth input from the rider. If my arms are locked and my elbows are tight, I'm probably not being as smooth and measured as I could be.
FWIW, I'm merely a novice rider with a single trackday on my belt. I have since been practicing shifting my weight while the bike is on its wheel stands after watching a video of me. Anchoring is the part of your post that I wanted to discuss...

Basically, I have bad street riding habits that do not translate well to the track. I have grown accustomed to resting my already large belly on the tank to take the slack off my arms and wrists. During the hard turns going CCW at GSS, I found myself sliding my back a little in the seat during turns... I was thinking that trying to lower my center of gravity has to be good here. As a result, I was placing about 30% of my body's weight on the front of the tank. Not pressed hard at all. I am off enough to quickly slide across the tank when flipping angles... what I have since realized is that this awkward position makes me struggle to throttle hard exiting the turns. Essentially I have to return my body position in order to go WOT.

The part of your post that I think can help me with that is your use of anchoring with the legs. 70% back and 30% belly now sounds like a bad idea. I need to put that on my legs. I will try your approach today and see how that rolls. Any suggestions on body weight ratios? How much on my legs is what i mean...
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:20 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
back of the seat while braking, which is all the way to the apex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
when you're braking the rear is light. Unless you are phenomenal at modulating the clutch teh rear will want to slide (even with the an oem slipper) or even lift from the pavement. The more weight on the back, the less likely to "endo" or slide. weight over the rear tire provides more stability while braking. from apex out it's whatever you feel comfortable with. I like to drop my inside elbow and try to touch my chin to my inside clip on... in the middle of the seat. (but a few inches left or right )
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossLady View Post
I always thought I was supposed to scoot back on the seat to set up for a turn then I took the Ty class and he said .. why are you doing that??
Interesting.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:33 AM   #27
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Some information from Keith Code....

"For steering, you want weight on the front to get that bite and turn
action. From this perspective, you can get on the gas too early, before the
bike has finished getting the extra turning advantage from the loaded front."

"Can you turn too quickly? Yes, It is possible to steer the bike so
quickly that the sudden load on the tires is enough to completely lose
traction. That is the real limit. How often does it happen? Well, how many
times have you seen someone turn in, lose the front-end and crash (being
too heavy on the brakes and turning at the same time not included)? It's
very rare. On-gas crashes outnumber these 500-to-1. The obvious other
exception is turning too quickly on wet or otherwise slippery surfaces.
Suspension set too soft, allowing the forks to bottom out, can also promote
loss of traction at turn-entry."

"You're able to structure* your braking from beginning to end in a
number of ways, including: Easy at first, gradually applying more lever
pressure; hard at first, then easing up; light, then hard, then light again;
and all the combinations in between. Which is best?
Trapping yourself into heavy braking at your turn-point is
working against the desired result. The basic product (end result) of
braking is to get the speed set accurately for the turn. It's difficult to
overcome the SRs (#7) which compel* most riders to gradually increase
the braking force and wind up with too much at the end. There are at least
five potential bad results:
1. Turning the bike with too much brake; one of the more common
causes of crashes.
2. The turn entry speed is wrong; usually too slow,
3. Too much attention on the braking force; not enough on where
you're going and what you're doing.
4. Missed turn-point; puts you off line going in.
5. Too low a turn-entry; gradual instead of decisive turning to avoid
SR #7 above.
The list could probably also include too much suspension action at
the transition from on-the-brakes to off-the-brakes."

"Everyone has used the front brake in a turn before and most bikes
have a tendency to stand up when the brakes are applied. While it is true
that you should avoid using the brake once settled into a turn, there
are exceptions (like emergencies) where it is necessary. Crashes often
occur when the rider leaves the bike at a steep lean angle or tries to hold it
tight in the turn while braking. Applying the front brake and consciously
bringing the bike up at the same time is the correct procedure for
emergency in-turn braking."

"I ran into a problem with weight
transfer a few years back. In an attempt to
fully relax on the bike. I took to laying my
upper body weight on the tank in turns. It
improved the handling in a number of places on
the track, especially the slow-to-medium-speed turns.
I didn't realize how much moving the weight, which was
now transferred to the front, was unloading the rear wheel.
When my lap times got good, I unexplainably "lost" the rear
end in a fast turn. I experimented with this on other bikes and
found the same thing, (without crashing); the back-end gets loose
much easier, on most bikes, with your upper body weight on the tank.
The bike was set-up fine for my body weight, it just didn't like where I was
putting it and I wasn't smart"

Last edited by maxgs; 05-10-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
Interesting.
Indeed. Obviously Cdill's BP has served him well and I am certainly in no place to argue that in any way. At the same time other's have been given what appears to be contrary instruction. Does it just come down to rider preference and feel for the bike?

Thank you to everyone that has responded so far. My ultimate concern is that as my laptimes drop I don't want to get to a place where a bad habit becomes the reason I get wreckitis. The more I learn now the smoother I hope to make my progression happen.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:47 AM   #29
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^^^^ Your lap times will improve with a couple of minor tweaks, BP is not one of them, at least not now.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #30
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^^^^ Your lap times will improve with a couple of minor tweaks, BP is not one of them, at least not now.
So my BP at least looked decent enough at GSS?
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
Indeed. Obviously Cdill's BP has served him well and I am certainly in no place to argue that in any way. At the same time other's have been given what appears to be contrary instruction. Does it just come down to rider preference and feel for the bike?

Thank you to everyone that has responded so far. My ultimate concern is that as my laptimes drop I don't want to get to a place where a bad habit becomes the reason I get wreckitis. The more I learn now the smoother I hope to make my progression happen.
The difference in opinions, particularly when they are coming from Brandt and Ty who are both quite fast, points out just how subjective opinions on things like body position can be. Do keep in mind, however, that Ty spent at least a year instructing with one of the really big schools on the west coast (Skip Barber Superbike School). I'd imagine he picked up a lot of high quality theory that is now integrated into his instruction technique.

I prefer to find my own "source of truth" that works for my riding and instruction style. Of everything I've read, Code's stuff makes the most sense. That's why I pulled some of the information from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II. Just because it's what I like, doesn't make it right. Everybody has their own style and way of processing information.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:51 AM   #32
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I learned most of my advanced riding techniques from Ty. I have taken his class 4 or 5 times and done a private day. So yes, interesting indeed.

All I know is that when braking hard, at pace, you're going to have to move your back. Otherwise your going to stoppie into the turn or the rear tire is going to start sliding on you. Cruising a a moderate pace it may not matter but you may as well get ready for it now.

Have a look at some pictures. Most fast people straighten their arms some while braking and push their weight to the rear of the bike. You can use your legs to do this. Then from apex out it's a gradual transition to dropping the elbow and moving your weight forward and lower.

No need to take my word for it though. I'm just sharing what I do.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:54 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
The difference in opinions, particularly when they are coming from Brandt and Ty who are both quite fast, points out just how subjective opinions on things like body position can be. Do keep in mind, however, that Ty spent at least a year instructing with one of the really big schools on the west coast (Skip Barber Superbike School). I'd imagine he picked up a lot of high quality theory that is now integrated into his instruction technique.

I prefer to find my own "source of truth" that works for my riding and instruction style. Of everything I've read, Code's stuff makes the most sense. That's why I pulled some of the information from Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II. Just because it's what I like, doesn't make it right. Everybody has their own style and way of processing information.
Understood. I have a lot of trust in Tim/Godsuki to point me in the right direction for instruction. He's been there from the beginning and as slow as I am now I'd be sitting still without his help. A little healthy discussion with other riders is always enlightening though.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:00 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I learned most of my advanced riding techniques from Ty. I have taken his class 4 or 5 times and done a private day. So yes, interesting indeed.

All I know is that when braking hard, at pace, you're going to have to move your back. Otherwise your going to stoppie into the turn or the rear tire is going to start sliding on you. Cruising a a moderate pace it may not matter but you may as well get ready for it now.

Have a look at some pictures. Most fast people straighten their arms some while braking and push their weight to the rear of the bike. You can use your legs to do this. Then from apex out it's a gradual transition to dropping the elbow and moving your weight forward and lower.

No need to take my word for it though. I'm just sharing what I do.
Another example of a conflict between riding style and physics. Straightening your arms (i.e. stiffing your arms) leads to a increase in weight transfer to the front of the bike. The stiffer, the more significant.

More Keith Code stuff....

"Stiff-armed while braking
and in turns can make your
job more difficult by
transferring extra unwanted
weight to the front-end."

After braking, some riders stay stiff-armed on the bars; the upper
body is driven forward by a deceleration force of about 0.2 to 0.3 G.
leaving extra weight on the front-end of the bike. Potentially, up to 100
pounds of weight is transferred to the front end when that weight could be on the seat or tank, 24 to 36 inches further back. Forgetting to relax is all this really is."

"Another advantage of relaxing comes when you get back on the
gas. If the rider is already relaxed on the bike, there is up to 100 pounds
you don't have to transfer, front to rear, with the throttle. That makes the
transition, from off-the-gas to back-on-the-gas, much smoother, right from
the beginning of the throttle action. This totally agrees with machine design
and your goal of getting the bike settled to its 40/60 position as soon as
possible. Allow your body to relax immediately after the steering
action is completed. In fact, ideally, you would be loose right when the
fires "bite", at the moment you are at full lean angle."


"There is no way to counter-steer the bike into a corner efficiently after
braking with both arms stiff. Be prepared, be relaxed."

"Stiff on the bars under braking and at turn-entry makes turning the
bike far more difficult. The most efficient* way to steer is with your
forearms as flat as possible, directing your energy into steering and not
partially wasting your energy by pushing the bar downward. You instantly
"become stronger" (and able to turn it quicker) with every degree of angle
you drop your elbows."
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:05 AM   #35
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I didnt say stay stiff armed. I give up. I can't compete with curt quoting Keith Code.

I've given my opinion and what I do to turn the laps I do.

Out.

Last edited by cdill35; 05-10-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
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I didnt say stay stiff armed. I give up. I can't compete with curt quoting Keith Code.

I've given my opinion and what I do to turn the laps I do.

Out.
There is always more to learn until you are on the box and then consistently on top of the box. Even for the fast guys.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:13 AM   #37
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:13 AM   #38
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Good info and thoughts on this thread. I'm by no means an expert, and I'm in desperate need of getting back on the track - haven't done so since leaving Georgia. Sometimes my "two cents" aren't worth half that, but I blame inflation.

There are some things that are based on physics and are a given - good versus bad habits. There are just as many that are subjective and relate to what works best for you. My take on it is that to some degree, whatever keeps me fluid, smooth and comfortable is generally a good thing.

On a semi-unrelated note though, I still want the WTF sitrep on the last couple of years of GP and why everyone seems to have caught Rossi's habit of removing his inside foot from the rearset before corner entry. Maybe he didn't start it, but I recall seeing it first from VR and then several others.

Maybe there's a good technical reason, but sometimes I think that if Rossi had his toes amputated and sewed to his during a winning season half of the field would follow suit...
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:16 AM   #39
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
Some information from Keith Code....
"I ran into a problem with weight
transfer a few years back. In an attempt to
fully relax on the bike. I took to laying my
upper body weight on the tank in turns. It
improved the handling in a number of places on
the track, especially the slow-to-medium-speed turns.
I didn't realize how much moving the weight, which was
now transferred to the front, was unloading the rear wheel.
When my lap times got good, I unexplainably "lost" the rear
end in a fast turn. I experimented with this on other bikes and
found the same thing, (without crashing); the back-end gets loose
much easier, on most bikes, with your upper body weight on the tank.
The bike was set-up fine for my body weight, it just didn't like where I was
putting it and I wasn't smart"
It seems to me that this bit of Code seems to get to what cdill35 is saying about getting back on the seat under certain braking to avoid the loose rear (and this seems to me to probably be more of a concern for the liter bike crowd than the 600s).

Could it also be here that "laying on the tank," instead of hanging off the tank with the legs on the pegs supporting the weight, and therefore still putting a fair amount of weight on the pegs, is the real problem?
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