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Old 05-03-2011, 09:28 PM   #21
Deano3090
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My first street bike was 636.... and it is still my street bike now.

Respect the power and get properly trained (MSF and a motorcycle school that teaches at higher speeds) and you will be a safer rider no matter the size of the motor.
..... But I will say that the majority of crashes I have seen, have been new riders on 600+ cc sportbikes. But most (if not all) had never attended a trackday.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:28 PM   #22
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I'm not looking for validation at all, I don't know what I'm going to do yet, only opinions on the technique stated in my original post!!!
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:30 PM   #23
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Just buy whatever the you want. Just opinions anyways....it's your money and you're a grown man....

Lot's of opinions for and against...you'll never get everybody to agree on one.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:37 PM   #24
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Ok.... your 'technique' your going to lug the bike around trying to stay in the lower rpm band.

It's NOT the redline where the stuff kicks in and it's NOT with the trottle at full twist. A quarter turn on the ex250 is not going to feel the same as a quarter twist on an r1 and it's gonng be a big difference when you hit one of the sweet spots in the rpm band to boot....and if it happens by accident...
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:39 PM   #25
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Thank you Ulric, didn't think about that. Funny how sensitive people get with the whole 250 vs. 600 argument...it's like politics or religion haha
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
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I'm not looking for validation at all, I don't know what I'm going to do yet, only opinions on the technique stated in my original post!!!
I'm glad to see you're taking it seriously. Since my links were quite a bit to read through, I'll post a section that applies specifically to your question:

Quote:
The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred.

A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it.

And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking.

All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt.

The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:43 PM   #27
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Thank you Ulric, didn't think about that. Funny how sensitive people get with the whole 250 vs. 600 argument...it's like politics or religion haha
Have you ever ridden a 2 stroke dirt bike or quad?
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:49 PM   #28
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And not to too terribly much, but....


Quote:
Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

This is probably the number one reason that pops up. However, it isn't so much a reason as an observation. And it is a true one. Every year, lots of new riders go to their local dealerships or scour their local ads and bring home a brand new or used 600cc sportbike. And many of those riders do successfully manage to get through their learning process on these machines.

The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that. Yes, a 600cc down low is a tame if sensitive machine. However, it takes very little twist on the throttle to induce a large jump in rpm's. A brief bump on a pothole with a death grip on the throttle can introduce a 4000rpm jump in the blink of an eye (speaking from personal experience). In an experienced rider's hands, this is alarming but recoverable. A gentle rolloff or a little clutch feathering manages the surge nicely. In the hands of a newbie trying to figure out the best reaction to such a scare, a rapid closeoff or a panic brake is often the result and can get you into trouble very, very quickly.

Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. It is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group".

In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception.

What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Kid View Post
IMHO, there is much more room for a mistake on a 250 than a 600 SS bike.
ummm.... think you got mixed up there bud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2447INTX View Post
my exp buy a 600, to me if you go from a 250 - 600 you have to learn everything all over again,, the throttle responce will be way diff, the power to weight will be diff
the handleing will be diff ex ,,

the hole exp will be diff , in my op ,, start on the 600 and take your time , take the msf and ride within your skill level , you will learn and progress
with this logic, you might as well get a busa or a zx-14. right??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Kid View Post
Well, I'm far from an expert and still pretty new at riding, but while taking the MSF, throttle control was a huge part of riding, and for those who have never been on a bike, it's pretty amazing how little you have to roll the throttle to get power.

On the 250 if I hit a bump or gave a bit more power than needed, I was still able to adjust in a timely manner. Didn't feel like the bike would leave me. When I got on the 600, I accidently rolled the throttle pretty hard and scared the out of myself.

That being said, after a few weeks I became much more comfortable riding and the power didn't seem "overwhelming."
this your arugument for why 600 is safer than a 250? very confused by you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
I just look at the # of posters so far with less than 5 much less 10 years riding exp and wonder how many will still be riding on the street, or will still be with us in that much time. :-)

I think any 'new' rider benefits from a lower cc or non-sport orientated bike as a 'starter' rather and a 600cc+ sport bike, there's that....extra bit of wiggle room. Heck even the Fz6, a little too much throttle in right spot and you can be on your real quick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewingo View Post
Thank you Ulric, didn't think about that. Funny how sensitive people get with the whole 250 vs. 600 argument...it's like politics or religion haha
take advice with a grain of salt, but def be skeptical of advice given to you by noobs. ie. Ulric has good advice, Vegas Kid's is something to avoid-no offense, but truth.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:52 PM   #30
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Have you ever ridden a 2 stroke dirt bike or quad?
I've been on quads since I was 8
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:52 PM   #31
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That's kinda how I learned. I bought my bike new so I was gently breaking in the engine keeping it under 6k. My bike also has those drive modes which could be used so that the power is more gradual. Very useful for those that are not used to being hunched over in sportbike riding position. That's how I learned to be light on the bars eventually. As far as this preventing accidents, I think more noobs get in trouble with trying to turn rather than twisting their wrist too far. my .02


p.s - any noob reading this. My first bike was and is a 750. After learning how to ride, I could probably have the same, if not more fun on a 650. the 650 would be drastically cheaper to own and insure. TRUST ME
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:54 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Kid View Post
Well, I'm far from an expert and still pretty new at riding, but while taking the MSF, throttle control was a huge part of riding, and for those who have never been on a bike, it's pretty amazing how little you have to roll the throttle to get power.

On the 250 if I hit a bump or gave a bit more power than needed, I was still able to adjust in a timely manner. Didn't feel like the bike would leave me. When I got on the 600, I accidently rolled the throttle pretty hard and scared the out of myself.

That being said, after a few weeks I became much more comfortable riding and the power didn't seem "overwhelming."
So by this, I get that you were LESS likely to make big mistakes with the 250. I must have misunderstood your first post. My bad. I thought you meant the opposite.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:55 PM   #33
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Offhand, you might check the SV650... it's a twin not an I4 and sporty, but I'd rate it a 'safer' start than an I4.


Some random 'bits'... the 2004 FZ-6, does 0-60mph in 3.0 seconds and hits the rev limiter at approx 80mph in first, the 05 FZ-1 0-60 in 3.1 and is closer to the 90-100mph mark in first. Riding through the rpm band at a moderate build rate, there are actually 2 pts in which you can feel the power build.... and if your not careful downshifting can be just as hazardous, do it wrong and break the rear loose or end up with the front end in the air.


Quote:
I've been on quads since I was 8
That doesn't tell me a lot... but, would you toss someone on Quadzilla for their first quad? :-)
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:55 PM   #34
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And not to too terribly much, but....
Yeah I read all that this afternoon between classes actually lol.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:56 PM   #35
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if you have enough dicipline to keep it in your pants and ride safe, there aint nothin wrong with getting a 600. if you have doubts, dont
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:00 PM   #36
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That's kinda how I learned. I bought my bike new so I was gently breaking in the engine keeping it under 6k. My bike also has those drive modes which could be used so that the power is more gradual. Very useful for those that are not used to being hunched over in sportbike riding position. That's how I learned to be light on the bars eventually. As far as this preventing accidents, I think more noobs get in trouble with trying to turn rather than twisting their wrist too far. my .02


p.s - any noob reading this. My first bike was and is a 750. After learning how to ride, I could probably have the same, if not more fun on a 650. the 650 would be drastically cheaper to own and insure. TRUST ME


That's one thing I like about Suzuki is the option for the drive modes, the styling, (minus the one headlight deal). I'll figure it out once I get some seat time on a 250 this weekend and feel out the bike and throttle response and all of that. As I stated before, I have no idea what I'm going to do yet, leaning towards a Suzu 600, but may downsize to the Ninja 250R, I'm not set on either or, until after I take the MSF course.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:01 PM   #37
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if you have enough dicipline to keep it in your pants and ride safe, there aint nothin wrong with getting a 600. if you have doubts, dont
I'm pretty much through the crazy phase of my life, I'm 23 going on 24 and just trying to start my life, no need to act a fool and end it before I get to live it you know?
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:03 PM   #38
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..... But I will say that the majority of crashes I have seen, have been new riders on 600+ cc sportbikes. But most (if not all) had never attended a trackday.
luckily for me a school complex is my back yard neighbor, I can use the parking lots and access roads with zero traffic
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:03 PM   #39
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Suzuki makes a sexy 500. Might be a great compromise for you and they hold their value pretty well.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:04 PM   #40
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That's one thing I like about Suzuki is the option for the drive modes, the styling, (minus the one headlight deal). I'll figure it out once I get some seat time on a 250 this weekend and feel out the bike and throttle response and all of that. As I stated before, I have no idea what I'm going to do yet, leaning towards a Suzu 600, but may downsize to the Ninja 250R, I'm not set on either or, until after I take the MSF course.
There's a number of...alternatives.


Cruisers, ex500, SV650... and others more knowledgable can probably toss out some others. Heck I miss my old 700 intruder at times.
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