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View Poll Results: Do you have a M Class Endorsement on your License?
Yes 200 91.74%
No 18 8.26%
Voters: 218. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2011, 09:33 AM   #41
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short answer: yes
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:38 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus View Post
Exactly. I'm not saying that it doesn't help anyone, but I think our society is basically obsessed with licensing in general. If you take a step back and look at the actual results, you would see that IN MOST CASES (not yelling, just emphasizing) licensing provides little more than a false sense of security.
A lot of that depends on the amount of education and training required to get the license, no matter what kind of license it is. Let's make getting a motorcycle license on par with getting a private pilot's license
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:44 AM   #43
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Exactly. I'm not saying that it doesn't help anyone, but I think our society is basically obsessed with licensing in general. If you take a step back and look at the actual results, you would see that IN MOST CASES (not yelling, just emphasizing) licensing provides little more than a false sense of security.
Trying way too hard to justify not getting your M endorsement. We get it, you think it's pointless, you're not going to convince everyone you're right.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:04 AM   #44
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A lot of that depends on the amount of education and training required to get the license, no matter what kind of license it is. Let's make getting a motorcycle license on par with getting a private pilot's license
I spent quite a bit more time training for my private Heli license than on my M endorsement. I wish they made people take that much time to learn to ride. I saw quite a few people that shouldn't see a real street for a long time but could go get there endorsement immediately after "passing" the class.

I believe in the idea of the M endorsement but the system for getting that endorsement is flawed
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:08 AM   #45
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^ +1

Same can be said for the C endorsement. Too easy to get one.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:22 AM   #46
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A lot of that depends on the amount of education and training required to get the license, no matter what kind of license it is. Let's make getting a motorcycle license on par with getting a private pilot's license
I agree with your basic premise. Yes, most riders (including myself) hop on a bike with no idea of what they're getting into. The problem with licensing in general is that it leads to the assumption that the inexperienced license holder is somehow safer and more competent than someone who is experienced, yet unlicensed. It is just one more example of how we have devolved from a society that bases our actions upon our individual rights to a society that acts based on govt permission.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:25 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus View Post
I agree with your basic premise. Yes, most riders (including myself) hop on a bike with no idea of what they're getting into. The problem with licensing in general is that it leads to the assumption that the inexperienced license holder is somehow safer and more competent than someone who is experienced, yet unlicensed. It is just one more example of how we have devolved from a society that bases our actions upon our individual rights to a society that acts based on govt permission.
You have no right to operate a motor vehicle on the public roadways
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:29 AM   #48
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Trying way too hard to justify not getting your M endorsement. We get it, you think it's pointless, you're not going to convince everyone you're right.
I'm not attempting to justify anything. Merely pointing out a logical flaw. If you disagree that's fine, but that doesn't mean I should back off from explaining my point. If you have a rational argument let's hear it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:31 AM   #49
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You have no right to operate a motor vehicle on the public roadways
I absolutely agree.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:31 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus View Post
Exactly. I'm not saying that it doesn't help anyone, but I think our society is basically obsessed with licensing in general. If you take a step back and look at the actual results, you would see that IN MOST CASES (not yelling, just emphasizing) licensing provides little more than a false sense of security.
The Hurt report statistics seem to point to a different conclusion about trained and untrained riders.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:35 AM   #51
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It certainly didn't help you with Parade Laps
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:36 AM   #52
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus View Post
I'm not attempting to justify anything. Merely pointing out a logical flaw. If you disagree that's fine, but that doesn't mean I should back off from explaining my point. If you have a rational argument let's hear it.
You only took the classroom portion, you don't have the experience to suggest that it is completely useless. I learned many things from the riding portion of the MSF, but if it's your choice to remain ignorant it's certainly your right to do so.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:45 AM   #54
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Quote:
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The Hurt report statistics seem to point to a different conclusion about trained and untrained riders.
Which is why I stated "licensing in general". My argument is not against M certification or MSF training, it is against the blanket assumption that license = ability. In many instances, as shown by the Hurt report, license holders may perform better than the unlicensed, but when looked at on a wider scale, beyond just motorcycle licensing, it becomes apparent that there is no causal connection between the two.

Posting from the phone right now. I'll try to dig up a few examples and post them separately.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:50 AM   #55
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Godsuki made me do it
It's ok. I can handle the criticism. Just strengthens my resolve to do better next time. It is what it is.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus View Post
Which is why I stated "licensing in general". My argument is not against M certification or MSF training, it is against the blanket assumption that license = ability. In many instances, as shown by the Hurt report, license holders may perform better than the unlicensed, but when looked at on a wider scale, beyond just motorcycle licensing, it becomes apparent that there is no causal connection between the two.

Posting from the phone right now. I'll try to dig up a few examples and post them separately.
You're moving the goalpost. We're talking about M endorsements. We can expand the discussion far enough out to over generalize everything, but that's a waste of time.

The Hurt report provides very a very solid argument for licensing of motorcycle riders.




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Old 05-04-2011, 10:55 AM   #57
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You only took the classroom portion, you don't have the experience to suggest that it is completely useless. I learned many things from the riding portion of the MSF, but if it's your choice to remain ignorant it's certainly your right to do so.
At least I don't drive a front wheel drive truck!
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:37 AM   #58
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You're moving the goalpost. We're talking about M endorsements. We can expand the discussion far enough out to over generalize everything, but that's a waste of time.

The Hurt report provides very a very solid argument for licensing of motorcycle riders.




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You're right, I did move it a little.

Maybe I should start a new thread discussing the proper sphere of licensing, and how to keep it from overflowing into areas where it becomes self defeating.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:39 AM   #59
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You're right, I did move it a little.

Maybe I should start a new thread discussing the proper sphere of licensing, and how to keep it from overflowing into areas where it becomes self defeating.
Yea, I'd like to hear how licensing causes more harm than not
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:43 AM   #60
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Yea, I'd like to hear how licensing causes more harm than not
Gub'mint
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