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View Poll Results: What would you think of a G.L.S. in the USA?
It would be great, and work well. 27 46.55%
It would be great, but wouldn't work at all. 9 15.52%
It would suck, why ask something so stupid? 2 3.45%
Isn't the .gov in enough of our business? 9 15.52%
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:09 PM   #21
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:11 PM   #22
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Well not getting your M is stupid.. The ticket in Dallas without it is 380$ the class is 175. You do the math, add to it a small discount for insurance.
Love guys who cant get the M but can get a $500.00 exhaust
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:16 PM   #23
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Make it more difficult to get a license. Like MSF + Difficult riding test that will force you to get some on the road training.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:21 PM   #24
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If I understand the law here properly, you can take MSF and then get your full license, correct? Seems pretty good to me. But, if I remember correctly, you can still get your license through other means without MSF. That is the part that worries me.
As of Sept. 1, 2009, the MSF course is REQUIRED in Texas to get a motorcycle license. No way around it here.

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The MSF needs to be more extensive here. How does driving around a parking lot teach you about interacting and merging with traffic? The theory part is good and the riding portion does teach some important riding techniques but another day where you go out into traffic with an instructor would go along way IMO.
Actually, it's quite a bit better than the old curriculum was. There's a reason we have 12 people in a class and the exercises are designed so that on day 2, you are actually riding around the other students. It does teach some interaction with traffic whereas the old curriculum there was none at all.

The MSF actually does have a continuation course that goes out on the roadway with an Instructor (3 students, 1 Instructor all connected by radio), however, DPS has not approved it to be taught in Texas.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:35 PM   #25
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As of Sept. 1, 2009, the MSF course is REQUIRED in Texas to get a motorcycle license. No way around it here.



Actually, it's quite a bit better than the old curriculum was. There's a reason we have 12 people in a class and the exercises are designed so that on day 2, you are actually riding around the other students. It does teach some interaction with traffic whereas the old curriculum there was none at all.

The MSF actually does have a continuation course that goes out on the roadway with an Instructor (3 students, 1 Instructor all connected by radio), however, DPS has not approved it to be taught in Texas.
They should incude the continuation course as part of the regular course. IMO it doesn't teach enough that's why we have threads like this were people have taken the MSF and are afraid of getting on to freeways.

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=175695

I'm not saying that the MSF is or anything I just think it could be improved on.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:13 PM   #26
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does it matter the size of the bike? if someone doesn't know how to ride it, then they are going to get hit, regardless... the only way i would see it helping is to stop people from actually going 150... but lets be real, that doesn't happen THAT much with new riders they just don't go that fast. And other than not knowing how to turn, like the one guy a few weeks ago that just jumped off his bike? that would of happened if he was on a 1k or a 250... or the guys that got hit by cars, they still would of gotten hit, vs any size bike. so i personally think it's a not so good of an idea. just gives people MORE reasons to become illegal riders. half the people on bikes don't even have a class M, and you really think they are going to abide by engine size restrictions?
Gonna have to argue this point. While you are correct that there are many accident circumstances that the bike was simply mishandled... speed and acceleration often have a lot to do with an inexperienced rider ending up in the ER or the morgue. And adding tons of torque and horsepower to a rider who cannot handle the simple turning or stopping of a bike makes the problem MUCH worse. A 100+ horsepower sport bike can get you in trouble well below 150 miles per hour. It can get you in big trouble in first gear. It's EASY to mount one of these things and twist a throttle. Going fast in and of itself is an act devoid of any skill. Riding a bike with half the power or less forces a rider to master basic skills that will allow a person to develop into a well balanced rider. Adding power AFTER these skills are mastered makes sure that those basics are the foundation for everything after. Trying to add them as you go... under that threshold of horsepower is unlikely.

When I got my pilot license, I was first given a solo endorsement. I proved I could handle a low powered trainer and I wasn't allowed to take passengers. Less power in the air actually made me work harder to develop my skills correctly. After I proved I was capable and skilled enough - I got my private pilot rating. I could take passengers but only under certain conditions. During good weather. And only in certain airspace - I had to stay out of the way of other bigger and faster airplanes. Then I got my instrument rating - an addition to my license. It allowed me to fly in worse weather conditions - but again, I had to prove my skill. When I wanted to fly faster and more powerful aircraft I had to get endorsements to fly them.

I think there is some merit to the idea of proving yourself before you put a passenger or the rest of those on the public roadways at risk with bigger more powerful machines. At the same time - I think that maybe better enforcement of the laws already on the books might be the best place to start. Get the M endorsement violators off the roads. Perhaps have a specific difficult road test by DPS for those who want to "test out" of MSF if they really think they are that good. If they fail - go to MSF. Proof of ability gets you the endorsement.

Or do nothing - natural selection works too. But lots of people might find that "too mean and harsh". Personally - those who I'm responsible for will prove themselves before they ever sit their on an inline 600.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
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On one hand, the dealer can currently plop a squid on the most expensive/fastest bike they have, and scoot them on out the door. They wad it up a week later, the bike is a total loss, and if the rider survives he likely will never want to ride again, because to him "motorcycles are DANGEROUS!"

On the other hand, with a graduated system, a dealer could get someone set up with a 250 or whatever is small/legal. Under the system, the rider would likely have to have taken the MSF and been licensed in order to purchase the bike. He buys his gear, buys the bike, and is out the door. IN THEORY, the rider is more responsible and puts his miles on the bike. This leads to mainenance revenue for the dealership. Upon "graduation," the rider returns to the original dealer, where he trades up and hands more cash over to the dealer for his newer, bigger bike. In this instance, the dealership gets the sale of two bikes, maintenance on two bikes, as well as the mark-up on the re-sale of the original smaller bike- which is in high demand due to the new law.

Yeah, it is undoubtedly far-fetched, and takes place in a perfect world far-far off, but this is how I imagine it would benefit the dealers.

Then, on the other (third) hand, do I really want the government telling me what to do? Haven't they intruded into my life and decisions enough? What do I care if someone is naive enough to try and ride a liter bike as their first bike and off's themself? Darwin at work, right? Do I just hope they don't catapult into a family of four heading home from church? The .gov can't possibly stop that from happening, right?

Tons of questions that will possibly never be answered, but questions that should be asked nontheless.
Thanks for filling in the blanks I left.

Even if we assume that the buyer intends to cheat the system and buy a 250 garage queen to satisfy the regulation, they are still paying for two motorcycles and the dealership will likely get one back for resale.

I agree with TexasPsyclone re: the consequences of mistakes on a smaller versus a larger bike. I have made plenty of newbie mistakes on my 250 that could have turned out badly on a 600 supersport. For at least 2 months after I started riding I still occasionally dumped the clutch inadvertently. On a 250 that means a little kick in the and a foot of travel forward. On a 600 it might be a lot worse. With a relaxed riding posture and a generous steering lock, slow speed maneuvers are relatively painless. That wouldn't be the case with a 600's riding posture and more limited steering lock. It is also difficult to lock the brakes on a 250. They are comparatively weak and the front and rear have similar amounts of bite. Not so on a supersport.

Aside from the inherently forgiving nature of a smaller bike, they also reinforce the basics of riding. The trickiest thing on a motorcycle for a lot of people is the gearbox, at least in the U.S. Manual cars are rare to the point that driver's ED doesn't teach their operation. A 250 requires the use of every gear over the course of most trips. , I usually work the gearbox six times between every set of red lights (neutral to 3rd both ways). By the time I'm ready to move up I'll have a much better feel for using a motorcycle's clutch and gearbox to maintain good engine power in a variety of situations. If I never saw the bike's powerband legally outside of third that probably wouldn't be the case.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:45 PM   #28
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Those people who say they'd buy a 250 for a year and not ride it before getting a 600.. what?

If you're a new rider wouldn't you get excited about riding in general, not just the bike?

Australia has graduated license scheme (I moved from Aus to Texas a couple years ago) and I think its a great idea... for people other than me.. I like my SV650...

No seriously its a great idea, cuts down the number of new riders wadding their shiny new sports bikes and killing themselves. Also wouldn't that reduce everyone elses insurance?
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:46 PM   #29
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They should incude the continuation course as part of the regular course. IMO it doesn't teach enough that's why we have threads like this were people have taken the MSF and are afraid of getting on to freeways.

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=175695

I'm not saying that the MSF is or anything I just think it could be improved on.
I'm completely for a tiered system as long as it's done properly, which is highly doubtful. The tiered system would allow them to limit all sorts of things, bike size, speed, where and where you can't ride, etc. but that's partially the problem because the people who would determine these things all have someone else drive them around in a larger SUV running motorcycles over. They wouldn't have a clue about what they are doing despite paying a ton of money to have all sorts of expert panels come in and write reports. So its a great idea, but ultimately I could see it being too overbearing. On a side note if they instated this then they should have a tiered system for cars. It kills me when I see some Ferrari or Porsche torn up because some rich idiot didn't know how to drive it properly.

As for MSF, I think having to take it, is as it should be, a bare minimum for having any sort of privileges on a motorcycle. Case and point, I took an MSF not to long ago and there were of course plenty of other people there who already had bikes and needed to get their license. One of the people there had a very nice sport bike already(probably a little bit much for a first bike) and in the parking lot doing the drills he was hot- it (on the 250cc junkers) and just riding inappropriately for what we were doing (IMO). Sure enough on day two he bit hard because he was too busy trying to look cool and wasn't think/didn't know how to handle the situation properly. That straightened him up right away. Point being that people that think bikes are just toys (not to say they aren't partially) and have no concept of the technicalities of riding are dangerous and the least you can try to do is wake them up in the MSF course before they hurt themselves.

Question: Why do you not have to have your M license to buy a bike??
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:15 AM   #30
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This is a really good debate. There's points on both sides. I still as always lean in favor of less laws. I think there could be a feasible compromise in there.

There's no way to set an all-encompassing single-criteria rule for determining when someone's ready to "move up" to certain size bikes. A person's age and their maturity are only loosely related. I can't see that simply owning a small bike for a certain time assures "experience". Requiring certain mileage leaves too many loopholes to work.

There is much truth in previous comments regarding the dealership's motive to sell smaller bikes to beginners. On the surface, the dealerships have 2 options:

(1) sell the most expensive item they can, everytime. The dealership is a business and exists to make money. Downside is that you lose repeat customers when you sell something that kills them.

--or--

(2) encourage beginners to buy a beginner's bike. Since no other dealerships seem to be doing this it would demonstrate good faith towards the customer and build a level of trust which leads to loyalty, repeat business and glowing recommendations - and hence even more sales. Downside is that a higher % of the inventory moved has a lower markup. With limited floorspace this means less profits.


The second option would seem to be the most obvious, given a serious enough increase in sales to make up for the reduced markup per bike. But they're not doing it - why?

I strongly believe because we're in a lawsuit happy country, that's why. Anything we say or do can come back to bite us, hard. The salesmen already have this working against them. First there's the fact that they work comission and their boss wants them to sell 'Busas and Goldwings. Top it off they have a list of things they can and cannot say for purposes of preventing lawsuits. Go to dealerships, inquire about buying your "first" bike and ask for recommendations founded upon safety and learning skills. You're guaranteed to get the same two responses everytime: (1) "if you're concerned about safety, consult with a licenced, certified professional", (2) "once you're out of the parking lot and off our property you are on your own; safety is your own responsibility not ours."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The ideal "solution" could not be made mandatory, but could be a goldmine for an entrepeneur. First, get a huge piece of property with lots of land. Permanantly barricade off a large lot, add a separate building and lease it to an MSF course provider. Second have your dealership right there, with a large supply of small bikes such as Honda Rebels and Ninja 250s. Offer discounts, however small, to individuals having recently passed the MSF class and gotten their M - on those small bikes, plus helmets and gear. Third, have a "loop" around the property. It's not a race track, but allows for demo rides without the theft/damage concerns which would otherwise occur by letting people take test rides in traffic and off the property. Let people who have never ridden realize the difference between SS bikes and the others.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:02 AM   #31
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I dislike the government intruding into my life, however as driving/riding are a privilege and not a right, they can do as they please as far as laws. I agree with a tiered system but also agree with the concern of garage queens or those that might be inclined to fudge the milage. and I also think that maturity aned experience have alot to do with how one rides as well as how one acts in daily life.

that being said I voted for the boobies
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:04 AM   #32
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I have a freind who was 30 when he moved to the UK. He was able to ride his
RT1200 and Augusta F4 on a American license.

Of coarse he's had a M endorsement since he was 16...

personaly, I'm for it.

I even like the vests they have to were with the big L on the back....

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Old 04-06-2011, 08:40 AM   #33
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How many motorcyclists in TX already do not have the "M" endorsement to begin with? You set this up and its going to be even lower.
What would you say to stiffer penalties for those caught riding without an M endorsement? Or possibly a 2-3 strike system, the first two are warnings and/or light fines, with the third being an actual moving violation with more money on the line.

Its already cheaper to be licensed than it is to get a ticket for no M endorsement, but what ticket cost would be the breaking point where a rider says "It's not worth it to ride without a license, I'll wait a week or two before I get on the bike again" or "I better pick up my license before buying that shiny new bike at the dealership!"
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:51 AM   #34
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:54 AM   #35
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I voted boobies
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:59 AM   #36
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I voted boobies
If you vote for boobies you have to post pics!
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:13 PM   #37
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Rules can't over power stupid. We have enough rules and even more stupid. Leave it alone. One rule is always followed by another more strict rule. If we let this one by you have to ask what is next. Its sure to cost us more too. The gov. Will be seeing $ signs.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:24 PM   #38
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:35 PM   #39
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quick question, because i don't know the answer, if you get pulled over in TEXAS without a class M do you get your bike towed? or do you just get a ticket?
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:36 PM   #40
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