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Old 03-22-2011, 08:08 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Here is the problem.. unless you live in a vacuum and just came to "be", your actions DO unfortunately affect others.

Take for instance the dummy that rides with no helmet, crashes and dies. Just affects himself, right?

Wrong.

His friends, family, the emergency workers that have to clean up the mess, people passing by the scene, everyone elses insurance rates..

The effect of one persons simple, stupid act cause so many ramifications in life that you cannot possibly just toss them out.
So your argument is that the state must step in to protect your family's emotional well being, because you cannot be entrusted with it in your own decision process ("you" in the figurative vs. literal sense)?

That is an incredibly stifling and intrusive role for the government to assume. I don't recall seeing anything to that affect in the U.S. Constitution. I doubt it's in the state constitution either. Just think where we would be if our ancestors permitted government to rule their lives in such a way... We would have never even migrated away from the East coast because it would be far too dangerous to allow someone to take their family into the western wilderness and we couldn't allow explorers to go it alone because of the mental distress it would cause their families.

I, as should all free adults, am perfectly capable of making my own decisions without some overbearing bureaucracy having to micro-manage me. I left that behind me in NJ.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:12 AM   #122
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Another person who believes and gov. program could ever pay for itself? Isn't that an oxymoron or something?
No more than the notion that tax cuts will increase government revenue if they are applied properly.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:15 AM   #123
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So speed limits have zero effect on all drivers? Do traffic signals and stop signs have any effect?

Laws don't work so let's not have them. Who's with me? If you see a bike that's not yours, take it.
Where did I say it had ZERO effect on ALL drivers?

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I don't speed in the car because I don't want to get a ticket and I've ridden with riders that wouldn't speed because they had too many tickets.
Yup you and them made a MORAL decision NOT to speed. you understood what the consequence would be for your actions IF YOU WERE CAUGHT, and decided that those actions were not for you at this time.

Like I said, our laws are based off a general consensus of society's moral views. If those change so do the laws. the simple act of saying something is wrong does not mean that ALL view it as such and one has the choice to follow their own ideals of action or inaction in view of the law.

So if someone decides to buy a bike and try to lean it at full speed in a 90 degree turn, HOW does a law prevent this? the person making the decision may know that the law says its illegal but they still perform the action. HOW does a law alone prevent this?

Same goes again with the Arizona shooting, or even fort hood. HOW does a law prevent someone from shooting another out of spite?

Now try and stay on topic and discuss how a LAW prevents an action, inaction or a crime....
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:26 AM   #124
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So you'd be ok with no speed limits and me doing triple digits in front of your home...in school zones, etc? What's your address?
If you could safely drive at those speeds in a residential neighborhood, go for it. Thing is - you cannot. One need not put a speed limit in place to say you're driving dangerously.

The speed limit is akin to zero tolerance regulations in schools. It gives an objective baseline and eliminates the decision process.
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You don't think that the speed limit keeps some folks from speeding?
Only those who would drive off a cliff if there was no sign warning them. In other words - sheep who cannot think for themselves.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:27 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by 91stunna View Post
Makes more sense to restrict to bike purchases to those who can use them legally ride them. Yet I am prevented from buying a pistol just because of my age.
Give that one time - it will eventually be tossed. I have always disagreed with the idea that someone has to be 21 to purchase a pistol but can buy a rifle at 18...
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:28 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by ST675 View Post
Where did I say it had ZERO effect on ALL drivers?



Yup you and them made a MORAL decision NOT to speed. you understood what the consequence would be for your actions IF YOU WERE CAUGHT, and decided that those actions were not for you at this time.

Like I said, our laws are based off a general consensus of society's moral views. If those change so do the laws. the simple act of saying something is wrong does not mean that ALL view it as such and one has the choice to follow their own ideals of action or inaction in view of the law.

So if someone decides to buy a bike and try to lean it at full speed in a 90 degree turn, HOW does a law prevent this? the person making the decision may know that the law says its illegal but they still perform the action. HOW does a law alone prevent this?

Same goes again with the Arizona shooting, or even fort hood. HOW does a law prevent someone from shooting another out of spite?

Now try and stay on topic and discuss how a LAW prevents an action, inaction or a crime....
So then you agree speed limits have an effect on some?

The law allows for punishment. Some don't want to be punished by the law so it does prevent someone from breaking it.

To me speeding is not immoral, it's merely against the law. I could care less if society thinks it's wrong to speed.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:30 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by honorsdaddy View Post
If you could safely drive at those speeds in a residential neighborhood, go for it. Thing is - you cannot.
Define safely
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:34 AM   #128
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Give that one time - it will eventually be tossed. I have always disagreed with the idea that someone has to be 21 to purchase a pistol but can buy a rifle at 18...
Sometimes I really wish the state legislature would get off its and not worry about gerrymandering or red meat legislation and just rationalize the law. There are far too many instances where older laws with outdated justifications are kept on the books or where justifications clash between laws enacted at roughly the same time.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:34 AM   #129
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No more than the notion that tax cuts will increase government revenue if they are applied properly.
Who ever thought that made sense? Cuts can't mean an increase.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:49 AM   #130
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Who ever thought that made sense? Cuts can't mean an increase.
Check out the Laffer curve
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:52 AM   #131
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Define safely
Maintaining control of your vehicle in such a manner appropriate to the road conditions.

You cannot do it in my neighborhood at triple digit speeds due to road design and conditions.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:53 AM   #132
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Who ever thought that made sense? Cuts can't mean an increase.
Sure they can.

When you cut the rate to a certain point, the market stops trying to avoid paying and your total revenue increases.

It has happened every single time its been tried in every government ever to exist.
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:08 AM   #133
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So then you agree speed limits have an effect on some?

The law allows for punishment. Some don't want to be punished by the law so it does prevent someone from breaking it.

To me speeding is not immoral, it's merely against the law. I could care less if society thinks it's wrong to speed.
Yes, those who make the decision not to speed.

If one does not want to be punished they make the decision based off what they think is right or wrong, not based off the law. The law defines what MAY happen if you break XYZ Law. Not what WILL happen. It is the way people are raised, how they feel and their decisions of right or wrong that keep them in tow for following what society has deemed is the proper way to act.

Actually you do care. If you are following society's law's you make a moral decision to do so.
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:25 AM   #134
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Yes, those who make the decision not to speed.

If one does not want to be punished they make the decision based off what they think is right or wrong, not based off the law. The law defines what MAY happen if you break XYZ Law. Not what WILL happen. It is the way people are raised, how they feel and their decisions of right or wrong that keep them in tow for following what society has deemed is the proper way to act.

Actually you do care. If you are following society's law's you make a moral decision to do so.
Thanks for telling me what I care about. I do immoral all the time that's not against the law
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:27 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honorsdaddy View Post
Maintaining control of your vehicle in such a manner appropriate to the road conditions.
That could appy to every road
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:29 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
That could appy to every road
That's the point, Bevo.

Speed limit laws are largely pointless. The roads themselves, combined with conditions, tend to limit people to the same average speed. Yes, you have some who exceed it and some who don't seem to ever realize the gas pedal really can be pushed down further, but 85% or so tend to drive at the same speed regardless of what a sign might say.

The biggest and most obvious example of that was the 55mph speed limit. Most of the country routinely ignored it and went 70ish. When the limits were raised to 65/70, people stayed at 70ish. Raise them to 90, and you'll find far fewer people on the interstates because 90 scares the out of them.
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:30 AM   #137
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Thanks for telling me what I care about. I do immoral all the time that's not against the law
LOL then there oughta be a law.......

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Old 03-22-2011, 09:36 AM   #138
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That's the point, Bevo.

Speed limit laws are largely pointless. The roads themselves, combined with conditions, tend to limit people to the same average speed. Yes, you have some who exceed it and some who don't seem to ever realize the gas pedal really can be pushed down further, but 85% or so tend to drive at the same speed regardless of what a sign might say.

The biggest and most obvious example of that was the 55mph speed limit. Most of the country routinely ignored it and went 70ish. When the limits were raised to 65/70, people stayed at 70ish. Raise them to 90, and you'll find far fewer people on the interstates because 90 scares the out of them.
OK, then I'll be happy doing double posted in front of your home. What's your address?
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:45 AM   #139
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OK, then I'll be happy doing double posted in front of your home. What's your address?
Again - good luck with it. There are speed humps that will tear the out of your car at 30, let alone 50. I dont even want to think about what would happen if you hit them at that speed on a bike.

If you think you can do it safely though - feel free. Doesn't bother me any.

Not dumb enough to actually post my address on the web, but its in a neighborhood off of Wilcrest and High Star.

If you think the threat is going to bother me Bevo - think again. I really truly do not care, and if you dont harm anyone, then great.
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:57 AM   #140
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Again - good luck with it. There are speed humps that will tear the out of your car at 30, let alone 50. I dont even want to think about what would happen if you hit them at that speed on a bike.

If you think you can do it safely though - feel free. Doesn't bother me any.

Not dumb enough to actually post my address on the web, but its in a neighborhood off of Wilcrest and High Star.

If you think the threat is going to bother me Bevo - think again. I really truly do not care, and if you dont harm anyone, then great.
I don't believe in speed humps so I'm going to tear them out.
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