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Old 12-15-2010, 07:46 PM   #21
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fight it. take it to court bet you the judge will throw it out before she even calls u up to the stand!
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzo View Post
That's chickenshit! It's those cops that give a bad name to cops. Easy win, I believe its 10 percent over the speed limit. They due this for room for error in their radar and your speedometer. They should dismiss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownStunta View Post
its 10mph over is ticketable... under that will be dismissed in court...
  • Not true AT ALL!!!!!!! u can be ticketed for 1 mph over. also you can be ticketed for going too slow..... do both happen ? yes 100%.
  • do people just pay the citation via mail/phone? yes most do and some don't then a warrant will be made for their arrest and get in more trouble.
  • If you take such ticket to court will it be dropped? 99% of the time it will. and the office may actually get a talk for doing such thing.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Speeding is a strict liability crime. Faulty equipment would go to you "not intentionally going over the limit," and intent is not an element.

As a matter of fact, going over the speed limit is not an element of the crime of speeding either.
dude you just threw out a bunch of legal "jargon" and used NONE of it correctly... strict liability has NOTHING to do with a type of CRIME.... intent IS an element of a crime as it partially determines a culpable mental state (between reckless and negligence) and the speed limit is the most important element of the crime...
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:00 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerzey View Post
  • Not true AT ALL!!!!!!! u can be ticketed for 1 mph over. also you can be ticketed for going too slow..... do both happen ? yes 100%.
  • do people just pay the citation via mail/phone? yes most do and some don't then a warrant will be made for their arrest and get in more trouble.
  • If you take such ticket to court will it be dropped? 99% of the time it will. and the office may actually get a talk for doing such thing.
PRECISELY what he said... and also add to that to remember that TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS are CLASS C misdemeanors... speeding and one other violation in traffic are the only 2 non-arrestable offenses but any other traffic offense you can be ARRESTED for rather than given a ticket....

for the original poster... from what I heard that area is sticklers for speeding... if you really want to get out of it you'll end up having to pay an attorney most likely... You can try your luck in court but you may be assessed court fees on top of your ticket if you do that or if you lose... I'd just look at the $$$ costs and figure out the cheapest way (call the clerk of the court)
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
dude you just threw out a bunch of legal "jargon" and used NONE of it correctly... strict liability has NOTHING to do with a type of CRIME.... intent IS an element of a crime as it partially determines a culpable mental state (between reckless and negligence) and the speed limit is the most important element of the crime...
I think you will find that I do have some small idea of what I am talking about. And everything I said is correct.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:02 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
dude you just threw out a bunch of legal "jargon" and used NONE of it correctly... strict liability has NOTHING to do with a type of CRIME.... intent IS an element of a crime as it partially determines a culpable mental state (between reckless and negligence) and the speed limit is the most important element of the crime...
Umm, yeah. Wackjum is a LAWYER, what do you do for a living?
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:21 AM   #27
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Quote:
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Umm, yeah. Wackjum is a LAWYER, what do you do for a living?
paralegal... just kidding.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:44 AM   #28
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lol.
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Old 12-16-2010, 12:24 PM   #29
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Well I just got back from Court (where I go every morning just to hang out and look cool), so I can flesh out precisely why everything I said is correct. And this is probably good education for everybody in general.

The elements of speeding in Texas are...

1) In the territorial limits of [Houston, Harris County, etc]

2) On [date]

3) The defendant

4) Was operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway

5) At an unreasonable speed for the conditions then existing

6) And was not an authorized emergency vehicle

7) And was not a doctor responding to a medical emergency


These are the elements of the crime of speeding that the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Every element must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.*

Notice that the elements don't mention the following issues that many people believe gets them off tickets:

1) Defective equipment/I didn't know I was committing a violation/ I didn't see a speed limit sign.
2) The cop didn't use radar/laser or didn't show me the reading
3) The ticket has the wrong car make/model/year/color
4) I went just [small %] over the speed limit

As a matter of fact, the speed limit isn't even an element. But as somebody mentioned in a previous post, the statute says that the posted speed limit is prima facie a reasonable speed. So if 65 is legally the highest reasonable speed on that road, then it goes to say that anything above it must be unreasonable.


Secondly, speeding along with most transportation code crimes are strict liability. This means there is no mental state requirement. Contrast with the crime of Theft's elements:

1) In the territorial limits of [Houston, Harris County, etc]

2) On [date]

3) The defendant

4) Appropriated another's property

5) With intent to deprive

6) Without the owner's effective consent


Once again, the State has to prove all of these elements beyond a reasonable doubt.* There is now intent involved. So if it can be shown that the person took the property without intent to deprive, there is no theft. An example would be believing the item was free or paid for, when in fact it wasn't.




*The territorial element only has to be proven by a preponderance of evidence.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Well I just got back from Court (where I go every morning just to hang out and look cool), so I can flesh out precisely why everything I said is correct. And this is probably good education for everybody in general.

The elements of speeding in Texas are...

1) In the territorial limits of [Houston, Harris County, etc]

2) On [date]

3) The defendant

4) Was operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway

5) At an unreasonable speed for the conditions then existing

6) And was not an authorized emergency vehicle

7) And was not a doctor responding to a medical emergency


These are the elements of the crime of speeding that the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Every element must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.*

Notice that the elements don't mention the following issues that many people believe gets them off tickets:

1) Defective equipment/I didn't know I was committing a violation/ I didn't see a speed limit sign.
2) The cop didn't use radar/laser or didn't show me the reading
3) The ticket has the wrong car make/model/year/color
4) I went just [small %] over the speed limit

As a matter of fact, the speed limit isn't even an element. But as somebody mentioned in a previous post, the statute says that the posted speed limit is prima facie a reasonable speed. So if 65 is legally the highest reasonable speed on that road, then it goes to say that anything above it must be unreasonable.


Secondly, speeding along with most transportation code crimes are strict liability. This means there is no mental state requirement. Contrast with the crime of Theft's elements:

1) In the territorial limits of [Houston, Harris County, etc]

2) On [date]

3) The defendant

4) Appropriated another's property

5) With intent to deprive

6) Without the owner's effective consent


Once again, the State has to prove all of these elements beyond a reasonable doubt.* There is now intent involved. So if it can be shown that the person took the property without intent to deprive, there is no theft. An example would be believing the item was free or paid for, when in fact it wasn't.




*The territorial element only has to be proven by a preponderance of evidence.
yea, that was what i was talking about. isn't there a legal term for that tho? forgot what the lawyer called/worded it in trial.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Well I just got back from Court (where I go every morning just to hang out and look cool), so I can flesh out precisely why everything I said is correct. And this is probably good education for everybody in general.

The elements of speeding in Texas are...

1) In the territorial limits of [Houston, Harris County, etc]

2) On [date]

3) The defendant

4) Was operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway

5) At an unreasonable speed for the conditions then existing

6) And was not an authorized emergency vehicle

7) And was not a doctor responding to a medical emergency


These are the elements of the crime of speeding that the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Every element must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.*

Notice that the elements don't mention the following issues that many people believe gets them off tickets:

1) Defective equipment/I didn't know I was committing a violation/ I didn't see a speed limit sign.
2) The cop didn't use radar/laser or didn't show me the reading
3) The ticket has the wrong car make/model/year/color
4) I went just [small %] over the speed limit

As a matter of fact, the speed limit isn't even an element. But as somebody mentioned in a previous post, the statute says that the posted speed limit is prima facie a reasonable speed. So if 65 is legally the highest reasonable speed on that road, then it goes to say that anything above it must be unreasonable.
545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.

Explained by an attorney as:
Driving over the speed limit creates a rebuttable presumption that you were being unreasonable or imprudent. That is, the State has proven you were violating 545.351 by showing you drove over the speed limit. From that point it's up to you to show you were being reasonable and prudent. This allows cops to ticket you for going any amount over the speed limit, even though you may be able to beat the case at trial.

so as I originally stated I would say the speed limit is an element... although indirectly as it relates to #5 as you stated...

and yes obviously speeding doesn't have a culpable mental state... if it was everyone in this godforsaken state would be reckless

And I am talking about practical elements rather than legal... I'd say the jurisdiction, date, defendant, the fact that he was operating a motor vehicle, was not an emergency vehicle, nor was he a doctor responding to an emergency are all a given regarding this situation... the only element in question was whether he could get off regarding the fact that his speed was unreasonable...

but I don't argue with lawyers... just state the facts and let them try to twist the wording around
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:37 PM   #32
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I don't really want to pick on you, but you continue to post in an attempt to justify that I "threw out 'legal "jargon' and used NONE of it correctly."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
so as I originally stated I would say the speed limit is an element... although indirectly as it relates to #5 as you stated...
I thought you said it was "the most important element." Now it is the indirectly-most-important-element?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
and yes obviously speeding doesn't have a culpable mental state... if it was everyone in this godforsaken state would be reckless
Well "obviously" there's no mental state, except you matter-of-factly stated this morning that "strict liability has NOTHING to do with a type of CRIME." How else do you classify crimes that don't require any mental state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
And I am talking about practical elements rather than legal... I'd say the jurisdiction, date, defendant, the fact that he was operating a motor vehicle, was not an emergency vehicle, nor was he a doctor responding to an emergency are all a given regarding this situation... the only element in question was whether he could get off regarding the fact that his speed was unreasonable...
I don't know what a "practical element" is. An "element" of a crime is a necessary condition that must be proven for a person to be convicted of a crime. This is a legal term with an established definition, not just a word I am randomly using. Learning/knowing how to break down statutory language into elements is the first step to successfully doing anything in law, be it criminal or civil.

Go watch small claims or even traffic court where there are a lot of unrepresented people trying to defend themselves. They will try and explain their story. The judge may even patiently listen. And then *BAM*, guilty. If your story doesn't controvert elements, you won't prevail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D View Post
but I don't argue with lawyers... just state the facts and let them try to twist the wording around
Frankly I am getting somewhat annoyed by the people who claim I am twisting words around. I say it the way it is, and I try and make the law accessible to whoever is asking. You need to face that your previous statements were wrong. You are the one twisting words to make it seem like you said something else. And you need to stop pretending like you know what you are talking about. Somebody might just listen to you to their detriment.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:10 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
I don't really want to pick on you, but you continue to post in an attempt to justify that I "threw out 'legal "jargon' and used NONE of it correctly."
OK let me rephrase... you failed to clarify your point to where it was intelligible... but you have since clarified...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
I thought you said it was "the most important element." Now it is the indirectly-most-important-element?
I know you're a lawyer and all but do we really need to play semantics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Well "obviously" there's no mental state, except you matter-of-factly stated this morning that "strict liability has NOTHING to do with a type of CRIME." How else do you classify crimes that don't require any mental state?
It was a typo... I was trying to get ready for work and eat breakfast... that should read... "has nothing to do with THE type of crime" as in exactly what you just said... it doesn't matter if the person knowingly, negligently, etc was speeding he's still screwed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
I don't know what a "practical element" is. An "element" of a crime is a necessary condition that must be proven for a person to be convicted of a crime. This is a legal term with an established definition, not just a word I am randomly using. Learning/knowing how to break down statutory language into elements is the first step to successfully doing anything in law, be it criminal or civil.
I am perfectly aware what the legal definition of "element" is nor do I need black's to define it for me... I think most "lay people" understood what I meant by the practical element so I figured an EDUCATED attorney could use some critical thinking skills... but I will define it from MiniG0D's law dictionary as "the element in question" or the "particular element"... as I said I don't think the original poster was disputing the jurisdiction, date, etc of the case.. he was questioning your element #5...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Go watch small claims or even traffic court where there are a lot of unrepresented people trying to defend themselves. They will try and explain their story. The judge may even patiently listen. And then *BAM*, guilty. If your story doesn't controvert elements, you won't prevail.
I've spent plenty of time in court... don't know how long you've been practicing but possibly even more time than you... lets just say I keep your profession in business one way or another

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackjum View Post
Frankly I am getting somewhat annoyed by the people who claim I am twisting words around. I say it the way it is, and I try and make the law accessible to whoever is asking. You need to face that your previous statements were wrong. You are the one twisting words to make it seem like you said something else. And you need to stop pretending like you know what you are talking about. Somebody might just listen to you to their detriment.
If you frequently have a problem with people claiming you twist their words around have you ever though the problem may be you and not them? The first step to recovery is admitting your problem...

Now if you want to get to the issue at hand... why don't you criticize my original advice to the poster to keep this thread on track rather than twisting my words around...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniG0D
for the original poster... from what I heard that area is sticklers for speeding... if you really want to get out of it you'll end up having to pay an attorney most likely... You can try your luck in court but you may be assessed court fees on top of your ticket if you do that or if you lose... I'd just look at the $$$ costs and figure out the cheapest way (call the clerk of the court)
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:55 PM   #34
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Had 3 tickets, 48 in 35mph , failure to use turn signal to change lanes , and cracked windshield. $ 650.00 worth of tickets. Had a Lawyer, he said go for Jury Trial. I said ok . Court went to lunch 12 to 1. Came back at 1pm Judge said all tickets Dismissed. My Lawyer knows Judge , Judge knows Prosecutor end of story!
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:38 PM   #35
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Note to self: Paralegal should not argue with real lawyer unless you're a BIG @$$ .

(joking of course)
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