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Old 09-12-2010, 09:39 PM   #1
timboslice
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Late/Trail braking

Im starting to wonder how much time can be made up on the brakes? I know alot of riding coaches say to get your braking done while the bike is straight up, but all the guys i see that are really fast brake very hard, very late, and just about always trail the brake off until their knee is on the ground. So whats the deal, whats the proper way to brake?
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:55 PM   #2
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I always remember what they teach in level 2 about trailbraking. As u lean the contact patch gets smaller so should the applied pressure of the brakes. I can't remember how to say it but it's alongn that concept. Hopefully some of the fast guys chime in....
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:46 PM   #3
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Unless I'm mistaken, true trail braking is using a slight drag on the rear brake through a turn. It settles the suspension a bit = shorter wheel base= tighter turning radius. Its not actually about the braking you can do with it.

You can use brakes or engine braking through a turn rather than acceleration. The goal either way is to settle the suspension so that the bike holds its line.....but its definately an advanced skill
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:49 PM   #4
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GSS CCW is the best practice for trailing
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
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I always remember what they teach in level 2 about trailbraking. As u lean the contact patch gets smaller so should the applied pressure of the brakes. I can't remember how to say it but it's alongn that concept. Hopefully some of the fast guys chime in....
Well think about it.

If a tire has a total of 100% of traction available at any given time and you're using 85% of its available traction for turning the bike and then ask for 25% braking force...you're going to dump the front shortly after 15% braking is given.

I'm not a fast guy at all...but this is what makes sense to me.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:02 PM   #6
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As far as making up time on the brakes, I read something that made sense to me. (since I'm not fast, I quote others)
Every second you can get on the gas earlier is another second of speed you are carrying down the straights and since you are accelerating it compounds the advantage. Waiting until the last possible moment to brake as hard as possible is great, if you can pull it off, but getting on the gas sooner gives a bigger payoff.
The point is, late braking good, early gas better.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:18 PM   #7
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I would almost rather set my entry speed before getting into the corner and be at a speed where I can get in the corner with my chasis settled and start rolling on the gas.

Rather than rolling up with my hair on fire, slamming the brakes, hoping my speed is good for the corner and not having to make a bunch of mid-corner throttle corrections to keep my line in shape and potential suspension funk and then start getting on the gas.

I'd rather be smooth and compossed on the way in and getting on the gas really hard on the way out rather than rushing in and having to worry about 100 things to keep the bike on line and in the turn.

But that's just me and it's probably why i'm still slow.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Unless I'm mistaken, true trail braking is using a slight drag on the rear brake through a turn.
This is incorrect. Trail braking refers to the steady trailing off of the FRONT brakes up to the apex of a turn. The point is more to keep the front tire loaded, flexing the carcass, and giving the widest contact patch on the front possible. So, in essence it "settles the suspension" but not in the way that you might initially think.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:29 PM   #9
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OK, we got alot of different points going on all at once, and many of them with some good backing. Lets start putting them together.

The time between when your on the gas, and when your on the brakes should be kept to a minimum.

The less time spent braking the more time spent going fast. This is true but means you must brake very hard and late.

Getting on the gas early is the best way to carry speed, This is also true but does not mean you cant get off the brakes late.

Braking hard flattens the tire and increases traction. This is very true and would increase the distance you could trail brake.

Braking should be used to set corner speed. This is also very true.

Throttle and Brake inputs should be smooth and gradual. Not slow, but gradual.

Your chassis need to be settled when you are turning. This is also true, but there are some exceptions.

When you brake hard the front end drops significantly. This helps the bike turn at a faster rate which will help cornering. Now if you gently release the brake instead of just dropping it it will allow the front to slowly rise back up to provide enough travel for the suspension to work properly. If not stiffer springs will probably help. At this point, which for me is just a bit before the apex, brakes are off, bike and body are set, and am just cracking open the throttle. Max lean angle is reached and then its all about the exit, and getting my wrist twisted.

I have spent a good amount of time playing with alot of this, and even changing set ups on the bike to try to focus on different techniques.

I have come to the conclusion that it depends on the corner. For example, your not gonna wanna trail brake into a long sweeper, or an increasing radius turn, but a decrasing radius turn, a really long hairpin, or carousel it might help you carry a bit more speed on the entry.

Please chime in with a comment or question on these thoughts, the really good answers come from really good debates, and im open to many different ideas. For example i have heard Matt Mladin ,on inside with the champ, say that he never uses the back brake, but instead clips all his gear changes right off the back and then controls drag on the rear wheel with the clutch and throttle while braking.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:47 PM   #10
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sounds like you know what youre doing. now it just takes practice. maybe do a private day with Ty Howard?
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:51 PM   #11
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I followed Ty around MSRH and its gonna take way longer then one day. Lol Na he only does classes at MSR Cresson and thats quite a trip for me. I would really enjoy that though and would without a doubt learn alot.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:52 PM   #12
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Ty does classes with RideSmart on virtually all the texas tracks.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:55 PM   #13
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What about the one on one with ty?
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:00 PM   #14
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What about the one on one with ty?
Cresson and ECR...
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I知 really happy for you and I知 going to let you finish but AJFlo is one of the baddest mother fockers of all time!!!
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:05 PM   #15
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Thats what i remember reading, both are quite a ways off for me. Not to say im not gonna do it, just not this season.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:50 PM   #16
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Oh yeah speaking of really late and hard braking check out this link.

http://motomatters.com/news/2010/04/...t_carbon_.html
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:22 PM   #17
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Being a new/novice/slow rider and still working on the very basics of riding at reasonable speeds I try to be completely done with my braking before the turn, or just shortly after the entry. In my mind proper techniques, body position and throttle control have more weight than being a king of braking late at my current skill level. I still have a hard time mentally getting my self to start cracking the throttle at the apex. I know its mental and that my bike can fully handle it, I just find that particular mental barrier extremely tough. The last thing I want to do is get into a corner way to hot and have a fear kick in and trash my mental state and cause me to wreck. Done it once already and it sucks. But hopefully ill get there. Sooner rather than later...
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:30 PM   #18
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^^^ Alot of it is mental. Think about it. How much faster is, lets say Alonzo, entering, going through, and exiting the turn than yourself. Its almost like there is no such thing as entering "too hot". Entering too hot simply means your are scaring yourself and freaking out instead of trusting your bike, tires, and skill to get you through the turn safely. All that comes within time and practice.

I try to say to myself. If he can do it, I can do it. While Im following someone faster.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:57 PM   #19
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As an old geezer I come from the "get your breaking done before you get tipped in" world. Today the bikes are set up so much better than the elastic framed stuff I grew up on.
The trackday instructors convinced me to forget what I knew and brake into the appropriate corners. It increases the size of the contact patch by keeping the front loaded and thus by compressing the front the geometry changes so that the bike actually turns quicker. Traction is better all round.
Its pretty cool when you get it right.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:50 PM   #20
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it's a comfort level thing....

next time you're at the track, after you're done braking at your normal brake point, try trailing. at first it will feel like your bike can't turn when you're on the brakes, release a little lever the more you start leaning your bike. regardless of how fast you are going, keep dragging that front brake slightly til apex.....that's good practice. you'll get a feel for trail braking, and you'll see how much more it will help slow you down before you get back on the gas.

or the next time you come out to an LMStrackdays.com event, get with me and i'll work with you on trail braking.
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