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Old 04-03-2010, 02:12 AM   #1
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why you should custom tune vs generic map

Quote:
Originally Posted by POWERHOUSE View Post
POWERHOUSE had a 2009 Hayabusa on the dyno today with a Yosh pipe, and the "generic" map offered by Dynojet for this pipe and a stock air filter.

The first chart is what it made with Dynojet's map, the second chart is what it made after a Custom Dyno Map. And yes, we did extend the rev limit using ECU editor, but made no other ECU mods.

This is why you want to spend the money for a custom map!::51
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Old 04-03-2010, 06:24 AM   #2
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i learned this building race cars and the same thing applys here… its not even that much for a custom tune compared to the alternatives…
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:51 AM   #3
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When a bike is being custom-mapped, is the airflow into the air-box taken into account?

Let us assume that the air/fuel mixture is being adjusted with the bike stationary. The calculations are being performed with the engine drawing the air into the cylinders -- alone. Now, you take the bike on the road. As your speed increases, so does the air-flow being rammed into the air-box, to the cylinders. At this point, would the engine be running more "lean?" The bike is drawing more air into the cylinder than was expected.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:55 AM   #4
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Would somebody please explain the process the tuners use to perform a custom tune?

The more detail the better.
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Old 04-03-2010, 08:02 AM   #5
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I thought the purpose of the ECU was to meter the air being drawn into the engine, and applying the correct volume of fuel to each cylinder -- assuming a fuel-injected engine. In other words, the ECU is already attempting to optimize the combustion.

So, what exactly is a custom-tuner accomplishing, if they are adjusting the air/fuel mixture? Does the factory deliberately adjust the engine to be a little on the "rich" side to make sure the plugs, etc., do not burn-up from the extra heat of a "leaner" running engine?
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Old 04-03-2010, 08:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWFII View Post
I thought the purpose of the ECU was to meter the air being drawn into the engine, and applying the correct volume of fuel to each cylinder -- assuming a fuel-injected engine. In other words, the ECU is already attempting to optimize the combustion.

So, what exactly is a custom-tuner accomplishing, if they are adjusting the air/fuel mixture? Does the factory deliberately adjust the engine to be a little on the "rich" side to make sure the plugs, etc., do not burn-up from the extra heat of a "leaner" running engine?
Bikes have narrow band O2 sensors and more limited firmware capability in comparison to cars. They don't adjust fuel real time to meet a target a/f mixture. That's why we need power commanders and bazzaz systems.
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Old 04-03-2010, 08:47 AM   #7
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A custom tune takes into account aftermarket additions like filters and pipes, and also removing secondary flies in the intake tracts.

Factory is more often than not a bit lean, to help the cats stay hot enough for emissions.

There are two kinds of custom tunes. A standard dyno, where they tune for max hp at max rpm. Best for posers who like to spout off the big HP numbers.

A better tune is on a dyno that can load the bike and simulate road speeds. In this case they work from idle to redline, at various throttle openings and loads. You want someone that can set it up across the board, for best ecomony at light loads to max power at the top. They will look at the hp readings as well as wide band O2 at the pipe to get the correct numbers. This will also correct any flat spots in the throttle.

Tuning for max hp on the dyno is more often than not a bit lean for real world, as ram air and load is not accounted for. A good tuner knows this and makes allowances.
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:50 AM   #8
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Nice Numbers
I have seen graphs like this, but I am a little confused.
The mapped .006 graph does not seem to match the posted numbers.
And why doesn't the Torque and HP cross at 5252 RPM
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
Would somebody please explain the process the tuners use to perform a custom tune?

The more detail the better.

Tuning & power is all about ignition timing. The correct amount of fuel is there to burn & help cool the cylinder. Simply put, to keep the engine from eating itself from the inside out.

Quote:
Nice Numbers
I have seen graphs like this, but I am a little confused.
The mapped .006 graph does not seem to match the posted numbers.
And why doesn't the Torque and HP cross at 5252 RPM
The trq & hp scales have to be even on both sides for that to happen.

Last edited by Mark06gsxr; 04-03-2010 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWFII View Post
I thought the purpose of the ECU was to meter the air being drawn into the engine, and applying the correct volume of fuel to each cylinder -- assuming a fuel-injected engine. In other words, the ECU is already attempting to optimize the combustion.

So, what exactly is a custom-tuner accomplishing, if they are adjusting the air/fuel mixture? Does the factory deliberately adjust the engine to be a little on the "rich" side to make sure the plugs, etc., do not burn-up from the extra heat of a "leaner" running engine?
fyi, you can "flash" a busa's ECU vs having to buy a power commander or bazzaz unit. so you don't have to encure the additonal ~$300 for a PC, just pay for a dyno tune. though the closest place i know that is johnny cheese in austin.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1340HIGH View Post
Nice Numbers
I have seen graphs like this, but I am a little confused.
The mapped .006 graph does not seem to match the posted numbers.
And why doesn't the Torque and HP cross at 5252 RPM
Only happens on an engine dyno. Rear wheel dynos measure wheel speed and acceleration as opposed to actual torque, so all the numbers are calculations as opposed to actual measurements.

HP is a calculation based on torque x RPM, so is in fact a "nominal" number anyhow.
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Last edited by texlurch; 04-03-2010 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 04-03-2010, 12:21 PM   #12
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At some point in time, I would like to have the 186mph restriction disabled in the ECU, but I am too scared to try re-programming the ECU.

Speaking of which, is the 186mph tied to the max RPM on the bike, or is it another setting in the ECU? I figured, with the gearing, etc., 6th gear @ 10.5k RPM would yield the 186mph.
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Old 04-03-2010, 06:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Only happens on an engine dyno. Rear wheel dynos measure wheel speed and acceleration as opposed to actual torque, so all the numbers are calculations as opposed to actual measurements.

HP is a calculation based on torque x RPM, so is in fact a "nominal" number anyhow.
Are you saying that on a wheel dyno the HP and TQ curves do not cross at the predetermined value. I would love to hear you explain this....
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:48 PM   #14
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:45 PM   #15
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Guys,

I'm nearly finished building a vintage roadracer and would like to find someone who can make the final jetting and carb adjustments on a dyno. Anyone know someone, preferably near The Woodlands, that can properly tune an old school beast running a carborator and no electronics?
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Are you saying that on a wheel dyno the HP and TQ curves do not cross at the predetermined value. I would love to hear you explain this....
Nope, never said that; the question was why they didn't cross at 5252 rpm. They do cross at higher rpms.. again because of different calculation formulas.

HP = tq x rpm/ 5252... so actual, measured TQ calculations that relate in HP numbers will cross at 5252 rpm.

Two types of chassis dynos, the brake type being the closest to the engine crankshaft type.

A Brake dynamometer applies variable load on the engine and measures the engine's ability to move or hold the rpm as related to the "braking force" applied. It is connected to a computer which records the applied braking torque and calculates the power output of the engine based on information from a "load cell" or "strain gauge" and rpm (speed sensor).

An Inertia dynamometer provides a fixed inertial mass load and calculates the power required to accelerate that fixed, known mass and uses a computer to record rpm and acc. rate to calculate torque.

Nowadays everyone is used to numbers generated by chassis dynos.... some of us old guys still hold the belief that they are excellent tuning devices, and you can use the numbers to see if you gained or lost on a particular vehicle; but if you want true HP numbers you need to strap the engine to a "real" dyno and pull it.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Guys,

I'm nearly finished building a vintage roadracer and would like to find someone who can make the final jetting and carb adjustments on a dyno. Anyone know someone, preferably near The Woodlands, that can properly tune an old school beast running a carborator and no electronics?
M/U did a good job on my carbed SV when we had it

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Old 04-04-2010, 01:47 AM   #18
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I have 0 experience on this topic so my information/opinion dont count but logic tells me that "street tunes" actually give the best tuning. My reason behind that - street tune takes into consideration the "real world" variables (ram air/engine temp/etc) at those speeds.

Of course street tunes can't be done with bikes so I guess those variables just have to be guesstimated.
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I got the hint and dropped to the back of the ranks just in front of Ares, who btw rocks the outta that 250.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I have 0 experience on this topic so my information/opinion dont count but logic tells me that "street tunes" actually give the best tuning. My reason behind that - street tune takes into consideration the "real world" variables (ram air/engine temp/etc) at those speeds.

Of course street tunes can't be done with bikes so I guess those variables just have to be guesstimated.
Thats very arguable, while things are simulated on dynos, and as well street tuning is very limited and iffy with doing needed pulls on just that the street.


But yeah you pull fuel add timing to achieve higher horse power.
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X View Post
M/U did a good job on my carbed SV when we had it

1964 FM 1960 West
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Sounds good. I've chatted with Patrick about this in the past, I'll get back with him now that I'm getting close to ready.
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