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Old 03-31-2010, 04:16 PM   #21
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I would think after you crest the angle where the bike begins to travel w your weight you would switch to the solid bars at that time.

But its the initial push to get the bike going that needs to be achieved and difficult when momentum is already keeping the bike straight.

Whatcha think?
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Old 03-31-2010, 04:48 PM   #22
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It's hard for me to tell because I may be doing it subconsciously, but just like an airplane that's put in a bank, once the bike is in a bank (leaning), it seems that it wants to stay banked. Or maybe the force that's applied to the bars to keep it leaned is so light that you don't notice that you're doing it.
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:05 PM   #23
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It's hard for me to tell because I may be doing it subconsciously, but just like an airplane that's put in a bank, once the bike is in a bank (leaning), it seems that it wants to stay banked. Or maybe the force that's applied to the bars to keep it leaned is so light that you don't notice that you're doing it.

that seems to be true. once you've got the bike leaned you can take your hands off of the bars and the bike will continue on it's arc - assuming the bike is stable (good tires, even forks, etc).
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:10 PM   #24
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some bikes (tires) want to tuck the front wheel in, some go opposite. so i am curious to that extent..

but I will say that how tight your headtube/triple tree is will determine a bit as well. ( steering damper... actually!) will play a part too.
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:13 PM   #25
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some bikes want to tuck the front tire in, some go opposite. so i am curious to that extent..

but I will say that how tight your headtube/triple tree is will determine a bit as well. (or steering damper... actually) will play a part too.
Yea, my last two bikes have HESD so there's that
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:15 PM   #26
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It's amazing how many riders I come across that dont know to counter steer into a corner. They have spent years muscling a bike over. I tell them that it should take 2 fingers worth of pressure on the bars, and a slight nudge with the outside knee and they look at me like I am telling my alien abduction story. I didnt realize I was doing it. I read about it years ago, and realized I was subconsciously doing it already.
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Old 03-31-2010, 06:30 PM   #27
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there are people who can show that almost no input on the bars and steering with the body can have the same effect.
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Old 03-31-2010, 07:53 PM   #28
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oh just go buy the dvd. i did. worth the 34.95 IMO. street rider or track rider
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:47 PM   #29
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there are people who can show that almost no input on the bars and steering with the body can have the same effect.
I'm sorry but I would like to see that, and riding with no hands doesnt count because you can ride with no hands and create a counter steering motion when you use your hips/legs to move the bike around.

Unless that is what you mean.
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
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there are people who can show that almost no input on the bars and steering with the body can have the same effect.
steering? or just drifting left and right? the bike I mean.


two wheels down? (not one in the air.) again, not just drifting, but actually steering.
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:54 AM   #31
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Quote:
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there are people who can show that almost no input on the bars and steering with the body can have the same effect.
According to Keith Code, and more than 100 riders that have tested their body steering/leaning methods on the No Body Steering Bike. A bike that uses an extra set of bars solidly mounted to the bike's frame, proved that body steering/leaning will not cause the motorcycle to turn.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:28 AM   #32
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I have chased both godzuki and alonzo around the track on more occasions than I can count, and watched them enter a turn with their left hand on their hip and their body at full inside tuck. are they doing little steering unputs with the other hand? probably. but they are using their body input to do most of the steering for them. but without trying this yourself on the track, you're just speculating. and it worked for me last saturday. I only use the bars at the tip in of the turn.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:37 AM   #33
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I only use the bars at the tip in of the turn.
That's right you are. You're using the bars to move the front wheel off the center line axis. That's what's making the bike turn. I've been behind Tim as well and while he's a great instructor, there's no school in the Houston area like this one:
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:20 PM   #34
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You can test it yourself if you have a good steering dampener. Crank it all the way down until it is real tough to move the bars. (this is best done in a big parking lot with no obstacles)

Now get the bike rolling above 20 mph, take your hands off the bars, and try to make it turn. Good luck.

The whole controversy isn't over mid corner or on; it's about what initiates the turn, when you actually change direction. Without changing the slip angle of the front wheel, it is almost impossible to make it turn. Once leaned over, the front tire actually points into the turn, and the different diameters and radius between the front and rear tires cause it to arc.

I'd like to get someone to donate a cheap dirt bike, and bolt the front bars on solid, where there is no movement allowed of the front tire. Then let people try to turn it in a field. Would be some comical stuff I assure ya.
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:27 PM   #35
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I'd like to get someone to donate a cheap dirt bike, and bolt the front bars on solid, where there is no movement allowed of the front tire. Then let people try to turn it in a field. Would be some comical stuff I assure ya.
I'd volunteer for that. That could be a full afternoon of MH shenanigans. Enough beer, and you would THINK you are turning.
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:30 PM   #36
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well, there are a lot of bike schools that teach body inputs for directional changes at the track. not everyone goes to the church of keith code. try chasing tim or candie or bubby or gonzo around for more than just 1 session and you'll see how little input they put on the bars. you can do it either way, but I prefer 95% body.

this isn't street I'm talking about.
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
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well, there are a lot of bike schools that teach body inputs for directional changes at the track. not everyone goes to the church of keith code. try chasing tim or candie or bubby or gonzo around for more than just 1 session and you'll see how little input they put on the bars. you can do it either way, but I prefer 95% body.

this isn't street I'm talking about.
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No B.S.
At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double-barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective.

We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.

You can hear riders who believed in the body steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away, once they get those solid-mounted bars in their hands and try to body steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.
The Link

Ok I'll tell you what brother, you go and book a one day session at Streets of Willow Springs. If you can do one lap at a Parade Lap pace around the track on the "No B.S." bike and get video proof of you doing it, I'll reimburse the entire cost of your class plus round trip air fare
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:50 PM   #38
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you sir, may have a bet. lemme go look at the vid you sent real quick. I know there is more than 1 way to do this.
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:53 PM   #39
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you sir, may have a bet. lemme go look at the vid you sent real quick. I know there is more than 1 way to do this.
No part of your body may touch the ground, your feet must stay on the pegs and your hands must stay on the fixed bar
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:05 PM   #40
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If I could wade into this, Imma have to agree with Bevo. I'll even split the cost.

Anybody that believes you can steer a bike, at any speed above 10mph, using just body inputs doesn't understand the physics of whats happening.
I don't claim to understand all of it, but, I do know a couple of things.

1) Gyroscopic precession. The faster you spin the wheels of a motorcycle the more resistant to changing angle they become.
That's why when you are moving slowly it is easy to steer but the faster you go the more force you have to apply to the bars, to turn.
In effect, your bike becomes more stable as you go faster.

2) While you can, obviously, make your bike change lanes on the freeway without touching the bars, you cannot make your bike go thru a turn without countersteering.
Imagine the back straight at MSRH. As you approach the sweeper (turn 6 in the old numbering system) leading to the Diamonds Edge you will be whipping along at a pretty good clip.
Could you lock your throttle and make that turn without touching the bars?
The correct answer is, no.

When we talk about following another rider around a track and he has one hand on his hip while making a turn, that is not an indication of he isn't countersteering. It means he is countersteering with the other hand.
Notice that Alonzo doesn't go around the track with BOTH hands on his hips... he could not.
It is correct to say that not everyone follows the teachings of Keith Code. There is more than one way to do things and the others have valid points, but he has applied some science to his method and what he says is true. He even went to the trouble of building the "No BS bike" to prove this myth false.

Watch the vid, you see.
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