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Old 03-10-2010, 05:53 PM   #101
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So, who is goign to ante up the $6+ grand and make it happen? I'll sign up for level 2. We will see how many guys that are slower than me, sign up for level 1 because running faster than 1:54.999 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on a track day is moving.

I run about a 55 on track days at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and there arent 5 people passing me at a Ride Smart event. There are plenty passing me in the Expert Racer Group at a friday LSTD event. Can you get those guys to attend? I just dont know where you are going to get these level 1 riders capable of helping you break even, at best.

Seriously.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:55 PM   #102
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I'm not even sure if some people participating in this discussion even fit the criteria at all for TWS (Texas World Speedway).
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:07 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
So, who is goign to ante up the $6+ grand and make it happen? I'll sign up for level 2. We will see how many guys that are slower than me, sign up for level 1 because running faster than 1:54.999 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on a track day is moving.

I run about a 55 on track days at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and there arent 5 people passing me at a Ride Smart event. There are plenty passing me in the Expert Racer Group at a friday LSTD event. Can you get those guys to attend? I just dont know where you are going to get these level 1 riders capable of helping you break even, at best.

Seriously.
maybe I'm not following... no one is asking novice to run 2:20's or slower or intermediate to run 2:05-2:20....the issue is the demand for more intermediate groups on particular days so fast guys can get true advanced riders to the grid (like yourself)....I dunno... I just ride in the dirt.

curt says too many slow riders in the advanced levels with all track orgs.

it's apparent there are WAY more faster riders that fit the bill of "intermediate" than there are of people who fit the bill for novice or advanced...so people who should (and or would) sign up for intermediate don't because it sells out and/or they are the fast guy of intermediate and rather than dealing with 40 people a session they sign up for advanced when they really shouldn't (me included when I rode the track). At best on a trackday I could run 2:05's @ TWS (Texas World Speedway), but the majority of people at the track in Intermediate run 2:20's. I'm sorry, but I'll skip out on the shaky lines and parked corners to be the slightly slower guy in Advanced. Offer a trackday where 2 intermediate groups are offered and see how it does....remember, it isn't about the money....it's about making safer riders.

Last edited by dbuck; 03-10-2010 at 06:11 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:19 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
maybe I'm not following... no one is asking novice to run 2:20's or slower or intermediate to run 2:05-2:20....the issue is the demand for more intermediate groups on particular days so fast guys can get true advanced riders to the grid (like yourself)....I dunno... I just ride in the dirt.

curt says too many slow riders in the advanced levels with all track orgs.

it's apparent there are WAY more faster riders that fit the bill of "intermediate" than there are of people who fit the bill for novice or advanced...so people who should (and or would) sign up for intermediate don't because it sells out and/or they are the fast guy of intermediate and rather than dealing with 40 people a session they sign up for advanced when they really shouldn't (me included when I rode the track). At best on a trackday I could run 2:05's @ TWS (Texas World Speedway), but the majority of people at the track in Intermediate run 2:20's. I'm sorry, but I'll skip out on the shaky lines and parked corners to be the slightly slower guy in Advanced. Offer a trackday where 2 intermediate groups are offered and see how it does....remember, it isn't about the money....it's about making safer riders.
How many people are there that can run below a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway)? Because in Curts original post he suggests that if you can't run a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway), you're ineligible. My point is that there are not enough riders, capable of those speeds, to break even. That is all I am saying. Where are you going to get 70 ish riders that can run less than 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) so you can break even on the track rental without everyone paying $200+ each?
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:25 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
How many people are there that can run below a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway)? Because in Curts original post he suggests that if you can't run a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway), you're ineligible. My point is that there are not enough riders, capable of those speeds, to break even. That is all I am saying. Where are you going to get 70 ish riders that can run less than 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) so you can break even on the track rental without everyone paying $200+ each?
exactly....the only place you'll find people in the CORRECT group for their TRUE skill set is gonna be at the grid @ a sanctioned race.

However, I do think you can find 70 plus riders who fit the bill of intermediate though (true intermediate....2:10's -2:35) to fill 2 intermediate groups and then a handful of "advanced" riders to put in their own group....I think it could happen, not every event, but I can see it happening. Am I going to ante up 6k to try it? nope. I'd stick to dealing with traffic on td's and invest that 6k to racing if I want to be in the "correct" group.

Last edited by dbuck; 03-10-2010 at 06:29 PM. Reason: added my 2nd statement
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:27 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
How many people are there that can run below a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway)? Because in Curts original post he suggests that if you can't run a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway), you're ineligible. My point is that there are not enough riders, capable of those speeds, to break even. That is all I am saying. Where are you going to get 70 ish riders that can run less than 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) so you can break even on the track rental without everyone paying $200+ each?
I didn;'t mind paying 2bills riding with LMS for example bc I knew the track wasn't going to be at "full capacity" and it seemed that they didn't have the same issues being discussed here.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:32 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigComfy View Post
I didn;'t mind paying 2bills riding with LMS for example bc I knew the track wasn't going to be at "full capacity" and it seemed that they didn't have the same issues being discussed here.
I like riding with LMS too. But check it, that is about the 25 riders....the space it creates + the extraordinary seat time.

If Buck did not have the hook up, and that event wasnt treated as a member day, it would be FAR more than $200 per rider at 25 capacity. So you are willing to pay $200.00. What about $350.00?

But I think this thread is more about an event catering to a certain skill set as opposed to grid capacities.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:46 PM   #108
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I'll also add this quote (which I slightly modified) I found in another thread as it has proven to be true in my life on and off the racetrack...whether it be selecting a contractor to do some work on my house or picking what lawn boy to mow my yard.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
As with all things: when you lower the barrier to entry (the price you pay), the quality goes down (the service you receive).
I think adding a few dates that only offer 2 intermediate groups (1 slower and 1 faster) and 1 advanced group could do very well...but it's not my money to play with.

Last edited by dbuck; 03-10-2010 at 06:49 PM. Reason: correcting my grammar.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:48 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I like riding with LMS too. But check it, that is about the 25 riders....the space it creates + the extraordinary seat time.

If Buck did not have the hook up, and that event wasnt treated as a member day, it would be FAR more than $200 per rider at 25 capacity. So you are willing to pay $200.00. What about $350.00?

But I think this thread is more about an event catering to a certain skill set as opposed to grid capacities.
or maybe both...

What if he had 2 groups of 25-30 riders at 2 bills a pop?

While talking about MSRH I'm not too comfy with 40 riders on the track at the same time.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:52 PM   #110
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Curt, I'd like you to also bring up the amount of riders on a track issue.
Fewer riders on the track definitely helps, but that's not the core issue. The core issue is the speed differential between the fast riders in the advanced group in comparison to the slower riders in the advanced group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
So, who is goign to ante up the $6+ grand and make it happen? I'll sign up for level 2. We will see how many guys that are slower than me, sign up for level 1 because running faster than 1:54.999 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on a track day is moving.

I run about a 55 on track days at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and there arent 5 people passing me at a Ride Smart event. There are plenty passing me in the Expert Racer Group at a friday LSTD event. Can you get those guys to attend? I just dont know where you are going to get these level 1 riders capable of helping you break even, at best.

Seriously.
Seriously, the conversation and proposal has evolved beyond a lap time metric. This is not complicated. The suggestion is run a few track days that don't have a noob group and instead have three classifications, all of which are faster. Instead of Beginner - Intermediate - Advanced, the school has Intermediate - Advanced - Expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
How many people are there that can run below a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway)? Because in Curts original post he suggests that if you can't run a 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway), you're ineligible. My point is that there are not enough riders, capable of those speeds, to break even. That is all I am saying. Where are you going to get 70 ish riders that can run less than 2:10 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) so you can break even on the track rental without everyone paying $200+ each?
Point already made, as I said the proposal has evolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I like riding with LMS too. But check it, that is about the 25 riders....the space it creates + the extraordinary seat time.

If Buck did not have the hook up, and that event wasnt treated as a member day, it would be FAR more than $200 per rider at 25 capacity. So you are willing to pay $200.00. What about $350.00?

But I think this thread is more about an event catering to a certain skill set as opposed to grid capacities.
I like Buck's track days. Buck's days aren't comparable to RideSmart or LSTD. Buck's days are an opportunity for more experienced riders to get some serious seat time. No classroom instruction, not multiple groups... some on track instruction available, but on a more informal basis. And, everybody on the track at the same time.

That's not comparable to a track day organization running three differently skilled groups, classroom instruction, etc.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:56 PM   #111
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If riders were to sign up for the right level, the amount of riders would not be an issue
It shouldn't be up to the riders to select their group, except to specify that they are new. Ideally, rider progress is tracked and riders are ASSIGNED to a group as opposed to being able to select a group.

-Curt
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:56 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
I'll also add this quote (which I slightly modified) I found in another thread as it has proven to be true in my life on and off the racetrack...whether it be selecting a contractor to do some work on my house or picking what lawn boy to mow my yard.....



I think adding a few dates that only offer 2 intermediate groups (1 slower and 1 faster) and 1 advanced group could do very well...but it's not my money to play with.
I understand you now. But what you are suggesting seems a bit different that what Maxgs originally suggested. That, or I am having issues with comprehension. So, eliminate the beginner class, add 2 intermediate sessions and 1 advanced. Hmmm...possible!

And as far as your quote, I agree. In my industry, we are the creme de la creme for lawn boys. People get what they pay for. Sadly, in this economy, we are losing business as people are choosing lower quality contractors in order to save money. We are having to adjust. Sadly, we aren't set up to sell low margin work.

Quote:
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or maybe both...

What if he had 2 groups of 25-30 riders at 2 bills a pop?

While talking about MSRH I'm not too comfy with 40 riders on the track at the same time.
Ok...2 groups, 30 riders at 2 bills, plus ambulance and cornerworkers. Thats seems really tight.

And frankly, I am not comfortable riding at more than 75% or so with 40 people on the track either. The issues arise when people try to haul knowign the conditions and they crash. Then they blame it on the conditions, but they KNEW what the conditions where when they pitted out.

Last edited by cdill35; 03-10-2010 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:12 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I understand you now. But what you are suggesting seems a bit different that what Maxgs originally suggested. That, or I am having issues with comprehension. So, eliminate the beginner class, add 2 intermediate sessions and 1 advanced. Hmmm...possible!
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:23 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
It shouldn't be up to the riders to select their group, except to specify that they are new. Ideally, rider progress is tracked and riders are ASSIGNED to a group as opposed to being able to select a group.

-Curt
not anymore....trackdays are racetracks with no cops...who cares what some dude in an orange vest suggests?
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:33 PM   #115
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Why is this so complicated to understand?

This can be solved by having a track day school offer level 1-2-3/4 on some days and 2-3/4-5 (a new level) on non noob days. Level 4 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) the last event of the year was packed. That's not surprising with a people riding track for a full season. Of course people are going to get faster and advance.
From way back in December...

Selective comprehension I guess.
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:35 PM   #116
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From way back in December...

Selective comprehension I guess.
or old thread and didnt read everything again, only the first post.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:11 AM   #117
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A MAJOR problem with having too many riders on the track is moving riders up or down a group based on skill level. If its over crowded then you have little room for movement between groups.
If someone is in the wrong group MOVE them.

We keep really good data on previous customers and which groups they register in.
We also ask questions on new riders who come to ride with us for the first time other than Friday race groups when they sign up as a beginner or intermediate rider.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:59 AM   #118
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Im really curious to how track days are profitable.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:05 PM   #119
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Im really curious to how track days are profitable.
Total Gross > Track Costs
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:11 PM   #120
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Total Gross > Track Costs
You must've stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
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