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Old 12-30-2009, 02:44 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer-Joy View Post
ok this all sounds so biased and sorry to say but ridiculous.

More noobs = more wrecks. Its common sense. Ride Smart attracts more NEW riders therefor there are going to be more mistakes. So if all these new riders road with LSTD you are saying there would be less wrecks or run offs? I highly doubt it. The run offs/wrecks I've personally seen in lvl 1 or 2 had nothing to do with over population, thats whats so funny. They were strictly rider error; Came in too hot, over shot the turn, or cold feat and touched the break while in the turn.

Its common knowledge that Ride Smart has a new rider following and LSTD has more racers/experienced guys....so you cannot compare the two unless you have equal data for each.

I've seen a few videos on youtube of even the lvl 4 guys making these same mistakes and it never involved another rider.

maybe the % of wrecks is the same granted Ride Smart just has more riders period.


I believe that...good points and well taken.

But although they are rare, the issue is to avoid two-bike-wrecks, simply because think how bad things get when a crash does involve multiple riders. That's when people get hurt bad. Remember Graeme getting stuffed and crushed last year and he broke his leg? That's when Ride Smart all of a sudden started cracking down on making the classes mandatory adn all that mumbo jumbo. (Good mumbo jumbo though)

Sure people go down and get hurt on solo wrecks too, but the only actual bike-on-bike crash i've seen at a TD put someone in the hospital. Slow people crowding fast people greatly increases the risks of like that happening. And as for people riding over their head and out of control...well i'll just stop right there

Last edited by matemike; 12-30-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:52 PM   #62
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well ignoring the entire Ride Smart vs lstd debate this is more along the lines of curt asking what people think about a new org or modifying an existing.

If you ignore what td org does what it comes down to some fundamental issues which need to be addressed and have seem to come up multiple times in this conversation.

1. how do you handle riders who are in the wrong group ?
2. is there enough policing in all the groups ?
3. are riders who want wanting instruction receiving it ?
4. can the td org stay profitable with these changes ?

There are multiple factors that come into play when you try and double book days as a td org. Money, Money, Money. So splitting days I dont think will work due to the # of riders needed on both days to break even.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:01 PM   #63
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:14 PM   #64
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My post stated that LSTD does attract new riders hence the 8 beginner group events in 2009. I'm not comparing LSTD to Ride Smart and I'm not sure how you can make the statement that each organization attracts different groups?
We both offer a basic 3 group format. The only real difference in structure is the pre-cmra events. This is not to start an argument or any this org is better than another BS. 33% of our business on those 8 weekends were new or beginner level riders. Just an FYI....

Riders that want instruction need to ask or sign up for a school.
$50.00 for quality instruction with video review and low student to instructor ratio has always been our LSTD model.
Our intermediate school is one on one.
I mention in EVERY RIDERS MEETING that if someone needs a little help just ask!!!
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:41 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMan View Post
I mention in EVERY RIDERS MEETING that if someone needs a little help just ask!!!
I think that is what confuses the new people is they assume that someone is going to instruct them. I suspect some, perhaps many, have read about Codes school, or Schwantz's school and assume when they sign up that LSTD/Ride Smart will be something similar. And when they show up it is nothing like it, and they probably don't know what questions to ask.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:49 PM   #66
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I think that someone should know the difference based on how little they paid for their event vs. Code or Pridmore.

Our website pretty well explains that instruction for the event is an additional fee. I have attended a few Star schools and know Jason and Mark the owners pretty well. I have also had a few long conversations with Keith. Their programs completely revolve around their legendary staff and ideas. Heck, Keith calls himself a curriculumn snob. :-)
My point, they are schools, not open track days.
We try to balance our events where we offer the track day rider an opportunity to come ride on the track and get instruction if they choose too.
If not, come ride and if we need to, we'll visit with you.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:30 PM   #67
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I think the one thing that would help most riders is some kind of feedback at some point during the day. After 30-40 track days I've only had an instructor/control rider say ANYTHING to me 2-3 times. And each time it was helpful. The majority of the time nobody said anything more than "hi" and "be safe". And I've ridden with all of the trackday org's and been in the classroom with all of them.
Telling people they are doing fine and they look real smooth is not, IMHO, feedback. Having more control riders that are more interested in helping then just being out there for free track time might be the best thing the org's could do. ALL the orgs.
These comments are echoed by a number of track day participants. Hang off the bike more and work on your lines are not particularly valuable comments. But if there are no instructor qualification criteria nor instructor training, what can you expect?

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Old 12-30-2009, 10:31 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMan View Post
My post stated that LSTD does attract new riders hence the 8 beginner group events in 2009. I'm not comparing LSTD to Ride Smart and I'm not sure how you can make the statement that each organization attracts different groups?
We both offer a basic 3 group format. The only real difference in structure is the pre-cmra events. This is not to start an argument or any this org is better than another BS. 33% of our business on those 8 weekends were new or beginner level riders. Just an FYI....

Riders that want instruction need to ask or sign up for a school.
$50.00 for quality instruction with video review and low student to instructor ratio has always been our LSTD model.
Our intermediate school is one on one.
I mention in EVERY RIDERS MEETING that if someone needs a little help just ask!!!
A 3:1 student to instructor ratio with a track day school that doesn't get twisted up about an instructor using a video camera with students and data acquisition on the students bike sounds promising.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:36 PM   #69
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Curt,

Stop being so selfish with your ideas and go work for a TD organization. If you find you can do it better by your own rules than with a large dedicated group, go do it better and hire the best and brightest to follow you. Just please get a few days at GSS on the schedule. Talk to Buck.
That's pretty funny. I helped RideSmart a bit last year and authored a few documents for them, including a Novice Instructors guide. Unfortunately, it never caught on.

Instructors Guide....http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/Novice_In...xgs_090815.doc

Corner Workers Guide...http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/RideSmart...xgs_090318.pdf

Passing Rules....http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/RideSmart...xgs_090318.pdf


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Old 12-31-2009, 12:05 AM   #70
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I'm not knocking any of the orgs, they all have they're pros/cons. It just seems like there could be more structure to level 1 & 2 (more like a school) and let level 3 & 4 be geared more to the advanced/racers.
The fact is that a very small % is going to race, most will ride and have fun for a lot of years and keep coming out to the track. The more professional the orgs are the better off everyone is going to be.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:10 AM   #71
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I have read through alot of this. I have met many of you guys either at the track or at a meet and greet. We ride motorcycles period end of story. These are trackdays guys not races many of you forget this. We ride to have fun and grow as riders. I have rode with every different organization LSTD,Ridesmart, and Texas Track Days (RIP). I take one thing everytime I leave the track that was a great day with my friends. All this talk about noobs, what does that mean.. My roomate Pete is an instructor at ridesmart and had done 5 track days before becoming in an instructor and could compete if not beat most the CMRA novices so I cant see the amount of trackdays you have done proclaming you a noob.. especially since the one making a case (joy) has probably only done 3 or so trackdays... Ask yourself one thing. What gives you that desire to be on 2 wheels?
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:38 AM   #72
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i know how this thread started and where it has gone is not nesesarily bad,this thread has given both TD orgs plenty of feedback.what they choose to do with it is their choice of course.
some kind of data base,simple as it may be,is worth alot and in my opinion should some how be integrated into the the curriculim.
com'on guys,this all translates to more money and effort from TD orgs.
3:1 ratio would sky rocket the Td price.
unless you get instructors to work for cheap,and well,we all know where thats gonna get ya.(not saying you cant do it for cheap,just limits the amount of instructor choice)
instructing is a thankless job,and we can see it on this thread.
some of this guys,i think,do it just for track time.
what fun is that if you have to babysit,and ur "pay" is going down the drain if anyone come and asks for help.
not saying its a bad deal cuz i consider myself one who would b willing to help anyone at anytime if i so much as see a confused look on some one i meet.
you want 3:1 ratio,talk to Ty,im sure something can b arranged on an almost empty track.
thanks Macman for keeping this as professional as you have.
Ride Smart prolly ought to chime in and voice THEIR opinion on the matter,but then again this thread has pretty well been highjacked.......
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:44 AM   #73
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[QUOTE=MacMan;2372091]
We both offer a basic 3 group format. The only real difference in structure is the pre-cmra events. This is not to start an argument QUOTE]

this is key timing element,
there is a small flaw in it though.
i managed to do my first TD on one of this days,and pass my CMRA licensing class on my first time at track.
i did have my Mc endorsement for a year or so though.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:56 AM   #74
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We strive for a 3:1 instructor ratio in our beginner school.
$50.00 fee.........

Well worth the money.

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:59 AM   #75
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Quote:
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i know how this thread started and where it has gone is not nesesarily bad,this thread has given both TD orgs plenty of feedback.what they choose to do with it is their choice of course.
some kind of data base,simple as it may be,is worth alot and in my opinion should some how be integrated into the the curriculim.
com'on guys,this all translates to more money and effort from TD orgs.
3:1 ratio would sky rocket the Td price.
unless you get instructors to work for cheap,and well,we all know where thats gonna get ya.(not saying you cant do it for cheap,just limits the amount of instructor choice)
instructing is a thankless job,and we can see it on this thread.
some of this guys,i think,do it just for track time.
what fun is that if you have to babysit,and ur "pay" is going down the drain if anyone come and asks for help.
not saying its a bad deal cuz i consider myself one who would b willing to help anyone at anytime if i so much as see a confused look on some one i meet.
you want 3:1 ratio,talk to Ty,im sure something can b arranged on an almost empty track.
thanks Macman for keeping this as professional as you have.
Ride Smart prolly ought to chime in and voice THEIR opinion on the matter,but then again this thread has pretty well been highjacked.......
You might be surprised at how many people would volunteer, given a chance. I don't know how control riders/instructors are chosen but being a racer doesn't automatically make you a good teacher. Being approachable and being able to talk to people at they're level would be a big plus.

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Old 12-31-2009, 12:50 PM   #76
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That's pretty funny. I helped RideSmart a bit last year and authored a few documents for them, including a Novice Instructors guide. Unfortunately, it never caught on.

Instructors Guide....http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/Novice_In...xgs_090815.doc

Corner Workers Guide...http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/RideSmart...xgs_090318.pdf

Passing Rules....http://maxgsracing.com/tmp/RideSmart...xgs_090318.pdf


-Curt
Those are nice, I didn't realize you were that involved.

I've always thought it would be nice (and profitable) for a track day organization to offer....call me crazy....non-racetrack instruction. Free to folks who have a reserved spot at a track day. Maybe 3-4 hours a few weeks prior to a track day, with handouts (like yours), on-board video of the track in question, with sections on items like bike prep, passing, pitting, instructors, moving up / down, lap timers and significance of lap times, riding level, bike ability...etc. Throw one of these on a slow (mon, tues) night at a local restaurant...you could probably get a private room for free if folks buy dinner.

This would clarify what a track day expects of it's participants, as well of what they can ask of their track day org.

Just an idea.
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:50 PM   #77
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On the walmart / target analogy, don't forget K-mart who tried to appeal to both ends of the customer base and went out of buisness. Fill in the blank for who that may be here...

I would offer that a NOOB only day would help your issues more than an Expert only day. If the grid is getting pushed up to make room and the pace is collectivley low at the bottom end then you will have the disparity in the Advanced level that you are noticing more of lately.

The noob only day works great. I leraned more in that format and was runing smooth consitinet pace by the end of the day. They Kept it simple and had less arbitray rules and just straight up more track time. Which is what beginers need to get up to speed and be consitent. The 30 min sesions and working with knowleable people was well worth the $50 preimum.

The problem with instructing at anything, is remebering what it was like when you were learning yourself. Filling peoples heads with tons of info and rules in a classroom may not be the best thing for them at first. Where getting them out on their bikes and giving them more track time to expirence it for themselves is. Then the concepts begin to make sense.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:48 PM   #78
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there is always a different time format to be seen.
scenerio one:
-four 20 minute groups and loose one session(most skip at lest one anyways)
-four 30 minute groups and loose 2 maybe 3 sessions.
what most have a problem with is the amount of people on track at time.
with more gorups,it would easier to find a group to fit in.
with longer sessions more people skip more sessions,and pit in at staggered times(less traffic).
-----------pick ur poison------------
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:34 PM   #79
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In my opinion:
Two sessions 30 min each would be best. Gives you time to come in the pits, make changes and still go out to test them all in one session. 30 min also gives enough classroom time for those in a school.

Overall, cost is the main issue...with a 200+ $ track day I would just get a membership at MSRH, if no other options existed. Which they do.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:38 PM   #80
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Just wanted to throw this out there..

If a track cost $10,000 to rent, with the Ambulance and whatever else. Then how many riders, at $100.00 each do I need to break even? 100 riders. Typically level 4 doesnt fill up but levels 1 and 2 do. So lets call it 40 riders in 1, 40 riders in level 2 and 20 in level 4 and I have broke even. People complain that there is too much traffic and congestion but they forget that they just paid 100.00 to ride.

The other option...

Same track, same cost...$10,000.00 to rent. At $150.00 how many riders do I need to brake even? I need 67. Using the same ratio of 40% in level 1 and 2 and 20% in level 4 then they break down is 26 riders in level 1 and 26 in level 2 and then 15 in level 4.

You paid more, you got less traffic.

"K-Mart" as someone mentioned tried to say they were going to keep their grids at 30, provide 3:1 free instruction and charge what walmart was charging. That lasted one event. And they disappeared owing people money.

Its real simple, you want more space, better instructor to student ratio, smaller classrooms then you'll pay for it. You can't have that AND cheap prices.

And I'm not speaking on behalf of Ride Smart...I'm just throwing the math out there. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
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