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Old 12-30-2009, 10:21 AM   #41
dbuck
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they already offer this with LSTD...A group. lol

just kidding, carry on.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:36 AM   #42
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with a few exceptions,mainly the seperating by laptimes lstd already has all of these covered. i think with the exception of ONE event at TWS (Texas World Speedway) all of the other trackdays lstd hosted went off with minimal crashes and red flags, unlike ridesmart. lstd has control riders in every group but usually has a couple more in b group becuase thats where the majority of crashes are.

curt everything you are looking for in a trackday lstd has. except you wont be the boss man
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:41 AM   #43
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It seems like a common concern among TD riders is the issue of noobs on track with more experienced riders.
Since having noob only TD's probably wouldn't have enough participation to work, what about the idea of noob only sessions during a normal TD?
Maybe early in the day have all available instructors work for a session with slower, less experienced riders. Then, have the noobs ride in whatever you want to call the lowest level for a couple of sessions.
Later in the day, maybe another noob only session or 2.

Just kinda making this up as I go but, seems like this way you could incorporate noobs into regular sessions, while still giving them more intense attention from instructors to help bring them up to speed more quickly.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:43 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
It takes a whole additional level of thought and organization to pull off what you are describing. Imagine a track organization that keeps a database on all the riders. Within that database are instructor notes on riding style, strengths and development areas from previous track days as well as a recommendation of the level for the next time at the track.

While this might sound difficult at first, Driver's Edge has been doing it for a decade... a Texas based track day organization for cars. And Porsche Club, even longer.

A day for an instructor should go something like this....

Instructors meeting in the morning... review of what, as instructors, is important, track conditions, things to watch for.

Prior to riding, Instructors receive a very brief report on each of their prospective students (at Driver's Edge and Porsche this was printed on an index card)

Instructors ride with their students... at a reasonable student to instructor ratio... say no greater than 6 to 1.

If a student or the instructor believes it's time to be promoted, the student rides with a LEAD INSTRUCTOR for certification for advancement.

At the end of the day, each instructor completes the opposite side of the index card, grading the students on riding criteria, offering recommendations with their next instructor, as well as thoughts on the the riders level next time at that track. Sample criteria:

Graded from Needs improvement to Outstanding...
Consistency riding the line
Body position
Vision (looking ahead)
Smoothness with throttle
Effective use of brake
Courtesy when passing
Predictability when being passed
Situational awareness
Acknowledgment of corner workers
Aggressiveness (below average to extremely aggressive)
Pace in comparison to group (below average to much faster)
Other observations
Recommendations for next track day


While this is a far cry from what is done today with motorcycle track day organizations, car clubs all over do this every weekend.

BTW, instructors themselves are also certified. The certification requires the prospective instructor to provide instruction to a senior or very experience instructor. They ride together, the senior instructor makes intention errors and looks to see how the prospect describes what they are doing and what advice is offered. Those with the experience and ability to observe and discuss are made instructors. It's a much better approach then simply handing somebody a vest. Better for the students and better for the instructors.

Is RideSmart or LSTD ready to step up to the next level?

-Curt
dude you need to come to a lstd event. we literally do all of that except the rider database and index cards
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:50 AM   #45
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Quote:
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dude you need to come to a lstd event. we literally do all of that except the rider database and index cards
I think the rider database was the point. Without that element, it's just a trackday.
Maintaining a database would force the instructors to actually work with each rider, at least in the lower levels, then record his observations and impressions of the riders skill.
That would help with putting the rider in the right category in future TD's as well as helping the rider himself to understand how he is progressing.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:06 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
I think the rider database was the point. Without that element, it's just a trackday.
Maintaining a database would force the instructors to actually work with each rider, at least in the lower levels, then record his observations and impressions of the riders skill.
That would help with putting the rider in the right category in future TD's as well as helping the rider himself to understand how he is progressing.
for the most part lstd doesnt have the problem with the riders in the wrong group. every now and then it happens sure. and i dopnt nessesarily think the problem is with riders being in the wrong group, i think it has to do with over population of the group. the more people in a certain group especially the beginner/newer rider groups. the more people in the group the more people get bunched up and make mistakes
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:16 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeo36 View Post
with a few exceptions,mainly the seperating by laptimes lstd already has all of these covered. i think with the exception of ONE event at TWS (Texas World Speedway) all of the other trackdays lstd hosted went off with minimal crashes and red flags, unlike ridesmart. lstd has control riders in every group but usually has a couple more in b group becuase thats where the majority of crashes are.

curt everything you are looking for in a trackday lstd has. except you wont be the boss man


it's like WalMart vs. Target up in here...

Walmart = cheap and dirty and on every street corner.

Target = cleaner and bit more expensive...usually more difficult to find them.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:18 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post


it's like WalMart vs. Target up in here...

Walmart = cheap and dirty and on every street corner.

Target = cleaner and bit more expensive...usually more difficult to find them.
Pretty much
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:25 AM   #49
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Curt,

Stop being so selfish with your ideas and go work for a TD organization. If you find you can do it better by your own rules than with a large dedicated group, go do it better and hire the best and brightest to follow you. Just please get a few days at GSS on the schedule. Talk to Buck.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:29 AM   #50
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I think the one thing that would help most riders is some kind of feedback at some point during the day. After 30-40 track days I've only had an instructor/control rider say ANYTHING to me 2-3 times. And each time it was helpful. The majority of the time nobody said anything more than "hi" and "be safe". And I've ridden with all of the trackday org's and been in the classroom with all of them.
Telling people they are doing fine and they look real smooth is not, IMHO, feedback. Having more control riders that are more interested in helping then just being out there for free track time might be the best thing the org's could do. ALL the orgs.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:34 AM   #51
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:42 AM   #52
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I think the market has shown that it can't bear more than 2 orgs. Thats all I really have to add.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:48 AM   #53
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:46 PM   #54
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Joy,

We held 16 events in 2009.
8 pre-cmra and 8 weekends.

8 events where we had beginners, intermediate, and advanced riders.

Our rider turnout per event were about the same so the "rider following" numbers are close to equal.
The beginner group at LSTD is quite controlled and it is a fact that less riders per group equals less crashes. The intermediate group always seems to be the group with the most on track incidents.
In 10 years of operating LSTD we have always held our group sizes.

We pre-screen riders that have never ridden with us if they sign up for an intermediate or advanced group. We ask for their previous experience.
We also ask or require at least one year of riding or an MSF class before registering for an event. I am happy when prospective clients contact me asking for exceptions to that requirement. There are quite a few ex dirt guys or street riders that have been riding for years without an endorsement on their license. This is all on the honor system and riders can lie.
That is where group monitoring by instructors and moving people up or down a level is crucial. Smaller groups makes this easier..........

Maxgs has some good ideas but I think this type of event would be tough to hold on a consistant basis due to the cost and select rider base.
Timing an event is considered a no no by insurance.
We provide a lap timer beacon as a courtesy and do not track lap time data as not to open another can of worms on insurance costs. Bike insurance per event is quite a bit more than for car events.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:21 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badchev View Post
I think the one thing that would help most riders is some kind of feedback at some point during the day. After 30-40 track days I've only had an instructor/control rider say ANYTHING to me 2-3 times. And each time it was helpful. The majority of the time nobody said anything more than "hi" and "be safe". And I've ridden with all of the trackday org's and been in the classroom with all of them.
Telling people they are doing fine and they look real smooth is not, IMHO, feedback. Having more control riders that are more interested in helping then just being out there for free track time might be the best thing the org's could do. ALL the orgs.
+1 i can see this happening.

I feel that new riders need more instruction and evaluations to improve and make them safer riders. Not just saying "oh you are looking good" and sending them on their way. Be real with these riders, "you are braking WAAAY too early, follow me and I will show u a new brake marker to try" or follow me and try these lines
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:29 PM   #56
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:37 PM   #57
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How does something like this end up as a lstd vs Ride Smart topic?

And yea...its target vs walmart. Same chinese except one is more expensive.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:44 PM   #58
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I didnt take it that way Brandt.

I guess its just everyone being bored by rain and cold?
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
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How does something like this end up as a lstd vs Ride Smart topic?

And yea...its target vs walmart. Same chinese except one is more expensive.
in

You forgot to mention the more expensive chinese chit has less cart bumping, easier to navigate through the aisles, easier to find your products and easiear to check out.

out
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:40 PM   #60
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Last edited by Gixxer-Joy; 12-30-2009 at 02:44 PM.
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