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Old 12-26-2009, 08:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasyankee View Post
You will be eliminating almost all SV 650 and Kaw 250s. CMRA results show that the slowest SV's run between 2:10 and 2:20 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and 1:55 and 2:05 at MSRH. If racers, on average, run faster than just track day people and racers run faster on race day than in practice, then few SV and 250 people will qualify.

If your goal is to have smaller grids, run thirty minute sessions. People get tired in the afternoon. I've found that the 3 and 4 o'clock sessions at LMS have less than 10 riders on the track, sometimes less than five.
There are SV's in CMRA that run 1"51's at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Ask Romeo for his video. And if you can't run the pace, you can always ride with a different organization.

Racer run slow at track days because they are riding around slower riders. Take a level 4 rider and put them in level 1 and compare their lap times. You can't turn quick lap times with slow people all around you.

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Old 12-26-2009, 08:46 PM   #22
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well have someone inforce level 4 better and the fast people will be happy. Yes there can be level 2 traffic, but are we saying level 2 is a cmra race pace? is someone running level 2 a competitive cmra racer? if so why arent they in level 4.

it seems the bigger picture issue here is fast people dont like the slower people riding in their group. Hence the easy suggestion, have trackday enforce bumping up and down policies. People will just have to understand if it happens to there that there is a valid reason for it.

your suggestion is a trackday org that caters to the racer group.

From my experience if you take the # of complaints per group, level 4 would have the highest #. Now if you take the average # of riders in level 4 and build a trackday org around that you might as well do a private day because that is the # of riders you will have that meet the requirements.

If I was fast enough to be in the fast group and I had to look at my options they would be:

1. Sign up for fastest group and hope I get free time and space to work on lines and speed
2. Fork out the $$ to do a track on a private day
3. do a trackday on the track (lstd always there before race) and then iron out things during practice
You have to remember people do track days for other reasons than speed, hanging out with friends, the environment etc, but if none of that matters it seems a private day would be better.

Curt im sure you have done the research on the price for renting tracks for small groups of racers to practice.

How about this ...

Why not have the cmra work with tracks who are hosting the races throughout the year on booking days prior to the race weekend in which only cmra license holders can attend. Im sure the # of racers looking to get practice would be enough to offset the cost to around $150-250.

I mean when the races are at oakhill , look how many people are there the weekends prior to the race and at a price of under $100 its hard to complain.

wouldn't this be the ideal solution for racers, instead of interfering with trackdays

Last edited by mekrew; 12-26-2009 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
There are SV's in CMRA that run 1"51's at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Ask Romeo for his video. And if you can't run the pace, you can always ride with a different organization.

Racer run slow at track days because they are riding around slower riders. Take a level 4 rider and put them in level 1 and compare their lap times. You can't turn quick lap times with slow people all around you.

-Curt
I saw that video. I also checked the race results. Only six of the 21 finishers had times less than two minutes. Good riders on SV's can't consistently break two minutes at TWS (Texas World Speedway).
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:33 PM   #24
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I would be a horrible idea. All the Ride Smart leg humpers would get .
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:24 AM   #25
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Just a thought, but have to talked with Buck about his experiences with "private" trackdays. I'm sure he can offer all kinds of things that work and don't work.
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Old 12-27-2009, 09:22 AM   #26
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Why don't you talk with Buck and expand LMS into other tracks. I for one like the idea. More TD orgs mean more choices for us and less crowded grids.
Nonetheless your concept seems pretty similar to what LSTD is offering now on a race weekend, to make it different I would suggest you do weekend dates.
Great idea Curt, hopefully you'll be able to make it a reality.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:26 PM   #27
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Why don't you talk with Buck and expand LMS into other tracks. I for one like the idea. More TD orgs mean more choices for us and less crowded grids.
Nonetheless your concept seems pretty similar to what LSTD is offering now on a race weekend, to make it different I would suggest you do weekend dates.
Great idea Curt, hopefully you'll be able to make it a reality.
Or have an existing track day company make it a reality!

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Old 12-27-2009, 01:52 PM   #28
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I would be a horrible idea. All the Ride Smart leg humpers would get .


the simple fact is that Ride Smart has the right idea but lacks the "policing" on the track.

last time i was at MSRC i was gridded with 40 other peeps on the 1.7 track.

thats just nuts(and my lap times showed it).

on the prior TWS (Texas World Speedway) event in LVL 4 every other rider looked back,WTF,too see who was behind them as they swurved to the opposite side.

some,i could tell,were just there cuz they could not get into their propper group.
Ride Smart was notified and action WAS taken,but still abit too many riders IMHO.

-the root of this problem is the registration method.
i mean if there was some kind of refund policy,many more would register early and in the RIGHT group.(diff amount of refund as per times refunded. ex:1st 80%,2nd 60%,3rd 40%,4thnone)

instead they wait for the last minute and take whats available,LEVEL 4.

if Ride Smart was to charge an extra $25 per rider they could eliminate 1 rider for every 5.

that translates to 25 intead of 30 riders per group at same income $$.
i thought they were gonna start a program,like Elite's,that would only bump you after an evaluation.

that was the key to their problems.

with Elite,you cant even sign up for lvl 2 without prior evaluation.


i will continue to patron Ride Smart but really hope they change something,even if this means higher prices.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:55 PM   #29
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The more i thought about this...the more i felt that it may not be a new track org that needs to be developed here, but it could be about merely asking the current track orgs to obtain some of these rules just for starts. Basically to Police their group levels better. And I think the best place to start would be to weed out the slower people from the faster groups. Yes...identified by lap times only...then scope for the unpredictable riders.

I think strictly looking for faster riders that need to move up a level would be like trying to herd cats.
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:41 PM   #30
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Honestly, I see a few issues with this...the main thing being that I don't forsee there being enough people running the 'minimum times' that would come to every event to allow you to make enough money to clear track rental plus other expenses associated with running a trackday...


Now, if you were to have a trackday a week before a race weekend at the track that's going to be raced at the following weekend, that would have potential for a better turnout, IMO at least.
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Old 12-28-2009, 09:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Now, if you were to have a trackday a week before a race weekend at the track that's going to be raced at the following weekend, that would have potential for a better turnout, IMO at least.
lone star already does this,works out very well.

there is no "street" group on this day.

this new idea really has a pre-race day following potential.

'cept i think it be hard to schedule such day since Ride Smart and LSTD usually grabs the weekend before also.

couple of things i've spoted:

1.most racers are on some sort of budget they would blow if they attended an extra day of practice.

2.the ones who are not,have a membership at a track(or know someone who does) and dont need another TD org.

good luck though.
if i got invited id go to TWS (Texas World Speedway), at least anyways,especially since CMRA wont b racing the msrh track soon.
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Old 12-28-2009, 12:34 PM   #32
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Okay, I've got the solution ... Do what TTD did and book Both saturdays and sundays at any particular track ... and then run Saturday in three groups

a) First timers (0-2) trackdays
b) Low intermediate (1 - 3) trackdays
c) High intermediate (2-4) trackdays

then on Sundays ...

b) experts
c) race practices

Pie in the sky? You bettcha ... but I figure that's a good way to keep things safe and fun.
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Old 12-28-2009, 05:23 PM   #33
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and go broke..
sorry had to
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rc51eviltwin View Post


the simple fact is that Ride Smart has the right idea but lacks the "policing" on the track.

last time i was at MSRC i was gridded with 40 other peeps on the 1.7 track.

thats just nuts(and my lap times showed it).

on the prior TWS (Texas World Speedway) event in LVL 4 every other rider looked back,WTF,too see who was behind them as they swurved to the opposite side.

some,i could tell,were just there cuz they could not get into their propper group.
Ride Smart was notified and action WAS taken,but still abit too many riders IMHO.

-the root of this problem is the registration method.
i mean if there was some kind of refund policy,many more would register early and in the RIGHT group.(diff amount of refund as per times refunded. ex:1st 80%,2nd 60%,3rd 40%,4thnone)

instead they wait for the last minute and take whats available,LEVEL 4.

if Ride Smart was to charge an extra $25 per rider they could eliminate 1 rider for every 5.

that translates to 25 intead of 30 riders per group at same income $$.
i thought they were gonna start a program,like Elite's,that would only bump you after an evaluation.

that was the key to their problems.

with Elite,you cant even sign up for lvl 2 without prior evaluation.


i will continue to patron Ride Smart but really hope they change something,even if this means higher prices.
Sounds like a plan to me.

I'm for the idea on more "policing" in the groups.
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:54 PM   #35
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that is all it takes is more policing.

the trackday orgs need to be up front with people and say we are going to cap groups are X # of people. So if people signup late and end up in a group they dont belong one of 2 things can happen

1. they get bumped down/up to the correct group
2. they get a partial refund for the day because groups are full

As for registering, you can try the method TTD did, give riders incentive for registering early while maintaining the cancellation policy.

Also it would be good if on the websites there was a count of how many spots are remaining for the groups, I think this could possibly eliminate some of the late registering in the upper levels just because the others filled. That way everyone knows exactly how many spots are left, and if they fail to sign up knowing the new rules its their own fault
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:11 PM   #36
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that is all it takes is more policing.

the trackday orgs need to be up front with people and say we are going to cap groups are X # of people. So if people signup late and end up in a group they dont belong one of 2 things can happen

1. they get bumped down/up to the correct group
2. they get a partial refund for the day because groups are full

As for registering, you can try the method TTD did, give riders incentive for registering early while maintaining the cancellation policy.

Also it would be good if on the websites there was a count of how many spots are remaining for the groups, I think this could possibly eliminate some of the late registering in the upper levels just because the others filled. That way everyone knows exactly how many spots are left, and if they fail to sign up knowing the new rules its their own fault
It takes a whole additional level of thought and organization to pull off what you are describing. Imagine a track organization that keeps a database on all the riders. Within that database are instructor notes on riding style, strengths and development areas from previous track days as well as a recommendation of the level for the next time at the track.

While this might sound difficult at first, Driver's Edge has been doing it for a decade... a Texas based track day organization for cars. And Porsche Club, even longer.

A day for an instructor should go something like this....

Instructors meeting in the morning... review of what, as instructors, is important, track conditions, things to watch for.

Prior to riding, Instructors receive a very brief report on each of their prospective students (at Driver's Edge and Porsche this was printed on an index card)

Instructors ride with their students... at a reasonable student to instructor ratio... say no greater than 6 to 1.

If a student or the instructor believes it's time to be promoted, the student rides with a LEAD INSTRUCTOR for certification for advancement.

At the end of the day, each instructor completes the opposite side of the index card, grading the students on riding criteria, offering recommendations with their next instructor, as well as thoughts on the the riders level next time at that track. Sample criteria:

Graded from Needs improvement to Outstanding...
Consistency riding the line
Body position
Vision (looking ahead)
Smoothness with throttle
Effective use of brake
Courtesy when passing
Predictability when being passed
Situational awareness
Acknowledgment of corner workers
Aggressiveness (below average to extremely aggressive)
Pace in comparison to group (below average to much faster)
Other observations
Recommendations for next track day


While this is a far cry from what is done today with motorcycle track day organizations, car clubs all over do this every weekend.

BTW, instructors themselves are also certified. The certification requires the prospective instructor to provide instruction to a senior or very experience instructor. They ride together, the senior instructor makes intention errors and looks to see how the prospect describes what they are doing and what advice is offered. Those with the experience and ability to observe and discuss are made instructors. It's a much better approach then simply handing somebody a vest. Better for the students and better for the instructors.

Is RideSmart or LSTD ready to step up to the next level?

-Curt
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:38 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
It takes a whole additional level of thought and organization to pull off what you are describing. Imagine a track organization that keeps a database on all the riders. Within that database are instructor notes on riding style, strengths and development areas from previous track days as well as a recommendation of the level for the next time at the track.

While this might sound difficult at first, Driver's Edge has been doing it for a decade... a Texas based track day organization for cars. And Porsche Club, even longer.

A day for an instructor should go something like this....

Instructors meeting in the morning... review of what, as instructors, is important, track conditions, things to watch for.

Prior to riding, Instructors receive a very brief report on each of their prospective students (at Driver's Edge and Porsche this was printed on an index card)

Instructors ride with their students... at a reasonable student to instructor ratio... say no greater than 6 to 1.

If a student or the instructor believes it's time to be promoted, the student rides with a LEAD INSTRUCTOR for certification for advancement.

At the end of the day, each instructor completes the opposite side of the index card, grading the students on riding criteria, offering recommendations with their next instructor, as well as thoughts on the the riders level next time at that track. Sample criteria:

Graded from Needs improvement to Outstanding...
Consistency riding the line
Body position
Vision (looking ahead)
Smoothness with throttle
Effective use of brake
Courtesy when passing
Predictability when being passed
Situational awareness
Acknowledgment of corner workers
Aggressiveness (below average to extremely aggressive)
Pace in comparison to group (below average to much faster)
Other observations
Recommendations for next track day


While this is a far cry from what is done today with motorcycle track day organizations, car clubs all over do this every weekend.

BTW, instructors themselves are also certified. The certification requires the prospective instructor to provide instruction to a senior or very experience instructor. They ride together, the senior instructor makes intention errors and looks to see how the prospect describes what they are doing and what advice is offered. Those with the experience and ability to observe and discuss are made instructors. It's a much better approach then simply handing somebody a vest. Better for the students and better for the instructors.

Is RideSmart or LSTD ready to step up to the next level?

-Curt
I think what I described with better policing would take less thought and organization than what you are proposing. Not saying one is better than the other, but you are talking about redesigning an entire trackday org.

Here are some questions I would have about this not doubting it could work.

1. Lead instructors, can we say that the people who are instructors for current trackday orgs would pass as lead instructors ? Reason I ask is the 6:1 ratio is going to need to have a lot of people "certified"

2. What allows a student to be promoted from one level to the next, lap times, the grading scale you have above ?

3. As far as your grading goes I can see it being easier in a car with the teacher in the car, but a lot of those seem hard when you are on another bike.
I can agree with more coaching from the instructors, and possibly video. Take rider A follow them at the start of the day, give them pointers on what they need to try and fix. Follow them again middle of the day and make additional comments. Catch them before the end of the day to see progression

Overall I see the picture you are trying to create, but I think the ground work is already there. I am against the X:XX time = a certain group because in general but like its stated there are fast people who are just on slower bikes who would suffer.

All in all I think all you need is for the trackday orgs to do a few things

1. Better rider policing, bottom line i think we can all agree there isnt much
2. Better instructor/student teaching. I can understand even with a 6:1 ratio how it would be hard for a teacher to follow all their students and help them out throughout the day
3. Better policing

Last edited by mekrew; 12-29-2009 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:00 PM   #38
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I like your ideas MAXGS. I think the only problem is $$$. Especially in this economy.

Food for thought though... IMHO, the Friday LSTD trackday before CMRA race weekend is controlled extremely well. That is primarily due to the fact that you have street, novice racer, and expert racer sessions. I feel 100 percent safer and willing to push myself in a trackday with my race class verses a normal free for all trackday. This is due to the fact that I know that the majority of these guys have good experience(most of them have a heck of a lot more then that). This in a way is similar to what you are trying to do if that makes sense so I'm all for it.

Buck's trackdays were very good too.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:04 PM   #39
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police the groups and any trackday org can provide stable safe groups.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:07 PM   #40
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