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Old 12-26-2009, 10:11 AM   #1
maxgs
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Thoughts on a new track day offering...

I'm interested in gathering opinions and thoughts about having a track day company step up to a new offering or a new track day company started to cater to experienced, safe riders.


Would you ride? How much more is it worth? What questions do you have? What other criteria might be necessary?

Consider a track day tailored for experienced riders. At TWS (Texas World Speedway) for example...

Level 1 - Riders between 2:00 and 2:10
Level 2 - Riders from 1:55.0 to 1:59.99
Level 3 - Riders from 1:54.99 and below

At MSRH....

Level 1 - Riders between 1:49 and 1:55
Level 2 - Riders from 1:44.0 to 1:48.99
Level 3 - Riders from 1:43.99 and below


I'm contending that we have a strong enough population of experienced riders in the Houston/Dallas/San Antonio/Austin area to make such an Advanced Track day at least break even, if not profitable.

Other considerations:

No classroom instruction.

On track instructors and control riders.

Qualification to the Advanced School is done by the instructors and control riders. You have to be invited in order to register.

You can only register in the level for which you have qualified.

You can only be promoted to the next level by running 3 or more laps in a single session at the target lap times in the next faster group, verified by a timer, along with an instructor's recommendation. The recommendation is based on a rider's speed, safety, and predictability.

A highly organized instructor base with instructors who can clearly (1) ride fast and safely in, at least, the Level 2 group; and (2) communicate very effectively. If you can't, you aren't qualified to be an instructor.

Track day schools, while helping to build safer riders on the street, are now reaching a point that they are unsafe at the higher levels. Combining riders capable of running low 1:50's (1.50, 1:51, 1:52) with riders in the 2:20 to 2:35 range is dangerous, as is the practice in Level 4 today. Somebody is going to get seriously hurt out there. Promotion to level 4 can not and should not be based on number of track days, a rider's friends, or the promise of being able to lower your lap times merely as the result of not having to pass as many people.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:53 AM   #2
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Isn't there already someone doing something simular at MSRH now?

I check my mailbox everyday for my invitation, but it still hasn't come.

For me, cost is an issue. I don't want to pay almost twice as much just to have less traffic. That would make me have less trackdays a month. However, I don't mind paying more for high quality instruction.

Would the organization hire the instructors based on stickly their skills at instructing?.... or would it be based on the best they can find from a particular website?

If something developes, please send invitation.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:02 PM   #3
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudBug View Post
What would be nice is if the current trackday orgs would put this much thought into their trackdays. Now I have only rode with 2 different orgs and one of them is no linger here, bit it seems as if they try hard and still get cluster fcked.

But maybe when I can run a steady 1:55 I'll have a better voice.
+1

I think stipulations like the above are a good idea, safety-wise, but business-wise I think they would be limiting themselves and not be near as profitable.

Hopefully someone can get something like this not only going, but manage to keep it around and succeed, it sounds like an excellent idea.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:07 PM   #5
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I think the only real challenge would be finding an easy way to track lap times.
You'd have to get everyone to bring or rent timers and register them with track control.
You could print out and review lap times at the end of each session to make sure there weren't too much variation between the riders.
Would make a great resource for the riders to see how their times were progressing throughout the day.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:20 PM   #6
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I think the market is there. But the Business Plan needs to be flawless in order for something like this to work.

But It is a good idea.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:22 PM   #7
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:46 PM   #8
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:53 PM   #9
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Maybe just two levels with 30 min sessions in this case.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:56 PM   #10
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Not sure if lap times would suffice as certain individuals run slower machine(sv's for ex). They might need to be in the group above lap time bc of their corner speed and braking abilities.
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Old 12-26-2009, 02:03 PM   #11
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considering track days are already targeted at a very small (relatively) enthusiast group, making that group even smaller is a recipe for disaster. it will never become a profitable business. you can't charge more for it, because as a whole, racers/fast guys are broke. and you can't charge less for it because you'll have smaller groups of people coming to events, so it will be harder to make up your costs for insurance, track rental, EMT's, etc. it's a great idea, but most of the guys in the times you're looking at are already racing, and most don't feel the need for extra track time, especially not at a price premium.
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Old 12-26-2009, 02:14 PM   #12
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Interesting feedback. More comments are appreciated.
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Old 12-26-2009, 02:18 PM   #13
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Doing something like LMS at TWS (Texas World Speedway) would be be cool and making invite only would keep the squiddies out. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more than Ride Smart and lstd for such an option when I get back next year.
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:01 PM   #14
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Def a good idea...but there would have to be penalty stipulations as well...i see all the requirements needed to enter each level...but there's got to be a list some things that get you into trouble...bumped back...a track citation if you will. It would have to be strongly reprimanded and the track police would need to make examples of people right off the bat...no letting one thing "slide this time"


and for the record...this is obviously for the EXPERIENCED! I would barely make the MSRH level 2...slowest in that group for sure
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:34 PM   #15
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You will be eliminating almost all SV 650 and Kaw 250s. CMRA results show that the slowest SV's run between 2:10 and 2:20 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and 1:55 and 2:05 at MSRH. If racers, on average, run faster than just track day people and racers run faster on race day than in practice, then few SV and 250 people will qualify.

If your goal is to have smaller grids, run thirty minute sessions. People get tired in the afternoon. I've found that the 3 and 4 o'clock sessions at LMS have less than 10 riders on the track, sometimes less than five.
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:45 PM   #16
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how about a trackday just for twins (650, 250 and 500) ...
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:46 PM   #17
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that idea seems like it doesnt cater to everyone

to me the current trackday model caters to everyone. i think the problem everyone complains about is slower people in X group or people to fast in Y group

Here is what i see as a simple solution:

In each group if there are control riders and even the corner works, can notify the grid marshalls about these problematic riders

if someone is running in a level 4 group but belongs in level 2, well someone needs to get them after a session and move them down bottom line. the price is the same so they can't complain about that.

If the rider is upset because level 4 had more open space than 2 well that is just something they will have to deal with.

Bottom line i think instead of people going into the pits mad because a certain rider is in the wrong group instead of not saying anything, the trackday org should be notified and take the correct action.

As stated above if laptimers are put into the price the trackday org can use multiple factors to validate any complaints

1. average laptimes of that certain rider compared to group
2. cornerworkers opinion
3. # of complaints about that certain rider
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:50 PM   #18
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I would also like a TD org that provides free tires.
I'm tired of having to pay for them.
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:54 PM   #19
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Curt this is a great idea for sure. The only problem is the online registration it would be really difficult to get actual times without transponders. I think that certain trackday organizations need to get with there instructors to keep a closer eye on who needs to move up or down.. Thats just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekrew View Post
that idea seems like it doesnt cater to everyone

to me the current trackday model caters to everyone. i think the problem everyone complains about is slower people in X group or people to fast in Y group

Here is what i see as a simple solution:

In each group if there are control riders and even the corner works, can notify the grid marshalls about these problematic riders

if someone is running in a level 4 group but belongs in level 2, well someone needs to get them after a session and move them down bottom line. the price is the same so they can't complain about that.

If the rider is upset because level 4 had more open space than 2 well that is just something they will have to deal with.

Bottom line i think instead of people going into the pits mad because a certain rider is in the wrong group instead of not saying anything, the trackday org should be notified and take the correct action.

As stated above if laptimers are put into the price the trackday org can use multiple factors to validate any complaints

1. average laptimes of that certain rider compared to group
2. cornerworkers opinion
3. # of complaints about that certain rider
i agree with greg. as it stands there is barely any policing. IMO there should be more black flags. no way everyone on the track is 'behaving' at all times, and not endangering other riders and themselves (whether they be slow or fast).
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