MotoHouston.com MotoHouston.com
Register Members List Member Map Media Calendar Garage Forum Home Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MotoHouston.com > General Discussion > General Discussion (Moto Related)
Forgot info?

Welcome to MotoHouston.com! You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access to the community. By joining our free community you will have access to great discounts from our sponsors, the ability to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content, free email, classifieds, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join our community!

Register Today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.


FREE MH Decals by MAIL!

Advertisement

Reply
Share This Thread: 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
Old 12-22-2009, 11:53 AM   #1
Gryphin
09 r1!
 
Gryphin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (9)
Posts: 4,214

Experience: 4 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
09 Yamaha R1
06 Ninja ZX-6R (RIP)



Member Garage





Send a message via AIM to Gryphin
e85 in motorcycles?

i was wondering if their would be any downside to using e85 in your motorcycle.. because i know its basically 98octane... i use it in my truck but it burns way too fast to use all the time... and the cost is only about 13 cents cheaper
__________________
Quote:
We as riders know the risks we take everytime we put that kickstand up and twist the throttle.
Gryphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Look Twice For Motorcycles Challen General Discussion (Moto Related) 6 06-17-2009 10:37 AM
For Motorcycles too? iCole General Discussion (Moto Related) 0 01-17-2009 03:27 AM
Motorcycles everywhere txferrari Off Topic 20 05-27-2008 11:52 PM
Thank You Motorcycles Unlimited Red Off Topic 6 11-07-2006 09:24 PM
heard e85 is here paniro187 Off Topic 11 06-08-2006 06:00 AM
Advertisement
Old 12-22-2009, 11:57 AM   #2
SexualChocolate
JapLac on 22s
 
SexualChocolate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dickinson
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 5,197

Experience: 3 years

Bike(s):
998CCs of KING KONG...









Send a message via AIM to SexualChocolate
Since it burns faster and it costs just a little less, wouldn't it equate to about the same?

Most of the fuel at the pump has some percentage of E85 in it. I wouldn't go to the large percentage that you are running because I don't believe that motorcycles were built to work well with E85.

Quote:
From google:
The current problem with using the 85% ethanol fuel in non-certified engines is that ethanol tends to be somewhat corrosive to some aluminum and rubber components of your fuel system. It could damage hoses, seals and erode carburetors or fuel injectors. Also, in older vehicles, it can stir up the rust and gunk in the bottom of your tank and clog your filters.

The newer E85 certified cars and trucks have been designed with stainless steel parts and rubber hoses and seals that are not as sensitive to the alcohol's corrosive tendencies.
__________________
A few motorcycles, bicycles, and cars...and still in recovery phase

mybanner4a260100b5617
SexualChocolate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 12:07 PM   #3
spartandude
Custom User Title
 
spartandude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere near houston, ish.
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 1,947

Experience: 4 years

Bike(s):
750 honda shadow spirit




Member Garage





DON'T!!! E-85 in a vehicle that is not set up for it will run the risk of destroying the engine.
The reason? Ethanol needs to have a higher fuel to air ratio than gasoline. So if you just dump ethanol in without modifications you will run lean/hot and could damage pistons, rings, blocks, valves, etc. Your truck knows this and adjusts the signal to the injectors in order to dump more fuel. If you want to run E-85 you will need to have a map for the fuel in your PC or you will need much bigger jets in a carb (it can be done) and you will need to get rid of the AL and rubber in your fuel system.
E-85 is an excellent fuel for high performance applications as it has significantly higher pre-detonation temperatures (high "octane" rating). However the energy density of ethanol is lower than gasoline so it will not go as far per gallon. In addition, unless you up the compression ratio and/or the spark advance you will not gain the cycle efficiency of ethanol and will reduce your MPG even further.
Please don't put E-85 in a bike unless you consult with someone who knows what the heck they are doing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
My left eye turned into my skull and attempted to eat its way through my brain to escape the visual assault of stupidity. Awww , it just got to my Primary Motor Cortex. I can feeeeeeeeeeelllkknowqenf npnvpjw jwq uqvrp
spartandude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 12:35 PM   #4
Mark06gsxr
Let 'er eat
 
Mark06gsxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,276


Bike(s):
06/09 hybrid gsxr 750
'08 Duc' 848(sold)
'06 Gsxr 1000(sold)
'02 954rr(sold)






Don't believe the hype about e85 destroying fuel systems. It works just fine as long as u don't have uncoated aluminum or plastic for a tank. The big problem with e85 is that the a/f for peak hp is much richer than gasoline. So u need a lot of fuel and bigger injectors. Also, most n/a engines lose hp on e85 since it's has less btu's than straight gas, but it's more like 104-106 octane. The other problem is that it changes from summer to winter grade (e70) so u either need two tunes or buy some summer grade in bulk to use later. Otherwise it will be running even richer than it's supposed to.


Also it's a pita the find stations that have it. Ask me how I know.

Last edited by Mark06gsxr; 12-22-2009 at 12:39 PM.
Mark06gsxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 12:55 PM   #5
spartandude
Custom User Title
 
spartandude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere near houston, ish.
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 1,947

Experience: 4 years

Bike(s):
750 honda shadow spirit




Member Garage





@Mark: the hype is only if you care about longevity of your machine. If you can keep all water and air out of the ethanol fuel system you will be fine with aluminum. Old rubber hoses should not be present on his R1, but I believe the tank is aluminum and there may be some hard lines as well. It would be his call.

From ADVriders regarding ethanol in carbs:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309821
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo' tarded
Just curious...

I take the dirt bikes and four wheelers out about one a month. Everytime I have to pull the carbs and clean the white ethanol out of the jets.

End quote.

The white ethanol is the aluminum in your carburetors corroding to aluminum hydroxide, aluminum's version of rust. The aluminum parts are probably on their way to a slow death. You need to be careful when using ethanol fuels. I’m not sure about the gasoline additive’s effectiveness with ethanol but it might be wiser to drain the tanks and float bowls prior to storage if you’re in an area with high ethanol concentrations in the gas for sale.

Aluminum is a conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem with aluminum parts because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased.

There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the ethanol absorbing water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel, especially after storage. Water causes aluminum parts to corrode. It also causes corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. Aluminum hydroxide turns to aluminum oxide with heat (think combustion chamber) which is used as an abrasive in sandpaper.

The second mechanism that can occur with the use of ethanol based fuel and aluminum is galvanic corrosion. The corrosion will be worse for aluminum if other metals are present such as copper which is in brass fittings and jets or in the aluminum alloy. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process is why boat manufacturers add sacrificial anodes (zincs) to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. You won’t find those in your carburetors. "
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
My left eye turned into my skull and attempted to eat its way through my brain to escape the visual assault of stupidity. Awww , it just got to my Primary Motor Cortex. I can feeeeeeeeeeelllkknowqenf npnvpjw jwq uqvrp
spartandude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 01:13 PM   #6
Mark06gsxr
Let 'er eat
 
Mark06gsxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,276


Bike(s):
06/09 hybrid gsxr 750
'08 Duc' 848(sold)
'06 Gsxr 1000(sold)
'02 954rr(sold)






I'm not speaking from something I read on the Internet. My old car is for sale right now in the non moto related section. The 500whp integra on e85. I built that car from the ground up and it's been on e85 for a while now with zero problems. Of couse it's FI, carbs are a diff story
Mark06gsxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 01:19 PM   #7
SexualChocolate
JapLac on 22s
 
SexualChocolate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dickinson
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 5,197

Experience: 3 years

Bike(s):
998CCs of KING KONG...









Send a message via AIM to SexualChocolate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark954rr View Post
I'm not speaking from something I read on the Internet. My old car is for sale right now in the non moto related section. The 500whp integra on e85. I built that car from the ground up and it's been on e85 for a while now with zero problems. Of couse it's FI, carbs are a diff story
Since this is a motorcycle forum you have to apply it to motorcycles. A lot are still built with carbs, a lot are still out there with carbs, so in essence it may produce unfavorable results over long term (and sometimes short) on these vehicles.
__________________
A few motorcycles, bicycles, and cars...and still in recovery phase

mybanner4a260100b5617
SexualChocolate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 01:39 PM   #8
Mark06gsxr
Let 'er eat
 
Mark06gsxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,276


Bike(s):
06/09 hybrid gsxr 750
'08 Duc' 848(sold)
'06 Gsxr 1000(sold)
'02 954rr(sold)






Quote:
Originally Posted by SexualChocolate View Post
Since this is a motorcycle forum you have to apply it to motorcycles. A lot are still built with carbs, a lot are still out there with carbs, so in essence it may produce unfavorable results over long term (and sometimes short) on these vehicles.
Well I didnt see the OP ask about a particular bike, and I cant think of any now that arent fuel injected. So carbs+e85=


Motorcycle or car is not a whole lot of difference when it comes to the fuel system. Same basic parts and concepts.
Mark06gsxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 02:54 PM   #9
Jae
Kilted Basterd
 
Jae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richmond
Feedback Rating: (9)
Posts: 5,076

Experience: 9 years

Bike(s):
Naked Sprint
Russian POS
Angry Max/Tub
Pile o' Hyosungs

Member Garage


ask patrick about his experience with ethanol and motorcycles... or his jeep for that matter. ethanol is the devil for fuel systems, especially if not designed for it.

Last edited by Jae; 12-22-2009 at 02:56 PM.
Jae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 03:26 PM   #10
spartandude
Custom User Title
 
spartandude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere near houston, ish.
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 1,947

Experience: 4 years

Bike(s):
750 honda shadow spirit




Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark954rr View Post
Motorcycle or car is not a whole lot of difference when it comes to the fuel system. Same basic parts and concepts.
Although true, it is only to a point. Your integra was designed to give 150K trouble free miles as it rolled off the line. So when you threw on the ethanol you had to tune it to eek out those 500 ponies. The steel in your brake lines and gas tank are designed to stand up to environments ranging from Arizona's temps to Michigan's liberal use of salt on the roads. The OP's R1 is seen to be old if it crosses the 40K mark and is designed with performance primarily and high mileage reliability far in the distance. This means that the component may not be of the same materials even though the job is the same.
As I said he needs to talk to someone with actual experience. I am thinking he could run two power commanders with a switch between; one with a dino tune (14.7:1 A:F) and one with the corn alc tune (6.5:1 A:F by mass). Then he could coat the inside of the gas tank to avoid contact between the ethanol and the aluminum or just change out all the components that have compatibility problems. Then run a more aggressive time curve (Some people have gone as far ahead as 22 BTDC) and bump up the compression ratio (15:1 IIRC). This would net a sizable increase in the specific power out put.
POWER!!!!
But really with an R1 does one need more power? (Says the guy with 47 HP lugging 700+lbs around).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kibitzer View Post
My left eye turned into my skull and attempted to eat its way through my brain to escape the visual assault of stupidity. Awww , it just got to my Primary Motor Cortex. I can feeeeeeeeeeelllkknowqenf npnvpjw jwq uqvrp
spartandude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #11
SexualChocolate
JapLac on 22s
 
SexualChocolate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dickinson
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 5,197

Experience: 3 years

Bike(s):
998CCs of KING KONG...









Send a message via AIM to SexualChocolate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark954rr View Post
Well I didnt see the OP ask about a particular bike, and I cant think of any now that arent fuel injected. So carbs+e85=
Ninja 250/500, vulcan 500, honda aero line, most off road bikes...those are off the top of my head.

It is quite possible technology can change with the times. I am pretty sure my old prelude with the speedpro could have been t00ned to run on E85.
__________________
A few motorcycles, bicycles, and cars...and still in recovery phase

mybanner4a260100b5617
SexualChocolate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 06:58 PM   #12
Badchev
Slow
 
Badchev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Here
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,350

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
'01 Bandit









In a word, DON'T use E85 in your bike. Your asking for trouble and it isn't worth it.

For everyday driving in your truck/car, cost per mile e85 vs reg 87 doesn't make sense until the diference in price is greater than .35/gal.
Badchev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 07:28 PM   #13
Badzx14r
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: lagrange tx
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 4,746


Bike(s):
2many2list









User is banned

.
Badzx14r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 07:31 PM   #14
bradtx
Senior Member
 
bradtx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pearland
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 316

Experience: 10+ years

Bike(s):
1998 Triumph T595









The owner's manual states I can run a max of E10, so for sake of argument E85 is out of the question.

Assuming the fuel system's hardware can withstand the increased ethanol percentage, gasoline has something like 115,000 BTUs of energy per US gallon, E85 is somewhere around 78,000 BTUs of energy per US gallon. Once the ECM can't compensate with longer injector pulses, like at, but probably before full duty cycle, the engine is going to run lean. At the least I'd require higher flowing injectors and a custom map. Okay, now I'm running fine, but I still have the same size gas tank while my mileage has fallen by 25% or more. Now I have to find a station that sells E85, for the same as or more than E10...quickly.

What a PIA!

Brad
__________________
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. --Will Rogers
bradtx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 08:28 PM   #15
Gryphin
09 r1!
 
Gryphin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (9)
Posts: 4,214

Experience: 4 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
09 Yamaha R1
06 Ninja ZX-6R (RIP)



Member Garage





Send a message via AIM to Gryphin
i was just curious, ive never done it, nor do i plan too. but i saw a lexus is300 turbo charged, putting it in the tank.. (non-flex fuel car) and was just curious
__________________
Quote:
We as riders know the risks we take everytime we put that kickstand up and twist the throttle.
Gryphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 08:37 PM   #16
Mark06gsxr
Let 'er eat
 
Mark06gsxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,276


Bike(s):
06/09 hybrid gsxr 750
'08 Duc' 848(sold)
'06 Gsxr 1000(sold)
'02 954rr(sold)






Quote:
Originally Posted by spartandude View Post
Although true, it is only to a point. Your integra was designed to give 150K trouble free miles as it rolled off the line. So when you threw on the ethanol you had to tune it to eek out those 500 ponies. The steel in your brake lines and gas tank are designed to stand up to environments ranging from Arizona's temps to Michigan's liberal use of salt on the roads. The OP's R1 is seen to be old if it crosses the 40K mark and is designed with performance primarily and high mileage reliability far in the distance. This means that the component may not be of the same materials even though the job is the same.
As I said he needs to talk to someone with actual experience. I am thinking he could run two power commanders with a switch between; one with a dino tune (14.7:1 A:F) and one with the corn alc tune (6.5:1 A:F by mass). Then he could coat the inside of the gas tank to avoid contact between the ethanol and the aluminum or just change out all the components that have compatibility problems. Then run a more aggressive time curve (Some people have gone as far ahead as 22 BTDC) and bump up the compression ratio (15:1 IIRC). This would net a sizable increase in the specific power out put.
POWER!!!!
But really with an R1 does one need more power? (Says the guy with 47 HP lugging 700+lbs around).

My integra is running twin fuel pumps through 1600cc injectors @100+psi fuel pressure. Was a little more than a tune involved..
Mark06gsxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 09:30 AM   #17
ddgtomahawk
Write my name! \/
 
ddgtomahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alvin
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 5,493

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2016 R1
2001 Honda CBR929 RE
2005 Honda CBR600RR
2007 R6S






Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark954rr View Post
Don't believe the hype about e85 destroying fuel systems. It works just fine as long as u don't have uncoated aluminum or plastic for a tank. The big problem with e85 is that the a/f for peak hp is much richer than gasoline. So u need a lot of fuel and bigger injectors. Also, most n/a engines lose hp on e85 since it's has less btu's than straight gas, but it's more like 104-106 octane. The other problem is that it changes from summer to winter grade (e70) so u either need two tunes or buy some summer grade in bulk to use later. Otherwise it will be running even richer than it's supposed to.


Also it's a pita the find stations that have it. Ask me how I know.
Sorry the truth is ethanol is less dense so you need more in the combustion chamber to compress to the equivalent volume of gasoline, Sorry just exp. from building a 408 Turbocharged silverado to run off just E85, also factory injectors will work fine but only use E-85 if your vehicle is designed to. E-85 technically does have a much higher octane level but is very prone to preignition.
__________________


Come here you little cake eating sieg heil .
ddgtomahawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 09:33 AM   #18
ddgtomahawk
Write my name! \/
 
ddgtomahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alvin
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 5,493

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2016 R1
2001 Honda CBR929 RE
2005 Honda CBR600RR
2007 R6S






oops just read you built a integra you do realize why it was great to use E-85 also how did you circumvent its issues?, like what pistons did you use first of all?
__________________


Come here you little cake eating sieg heil .
ddgtomahawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 09:50 AM   #19
Mark06gsxr
Let 'er eat
 
Mark06gsxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,276


Bike(s):
06/09 hybrid gsxr 750
'08 Duc' 848(sold)
'06 Gsxr 1000(sold)
'02 954rr(sold)






Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgtomahawk View Post
oops just read you built a integra you do realize why it was great to use E-85 also how did you circumvent its issues?, like what pistons did you use first of all?
U need virtually nothing to switch to E85, as long as your fuel system is up to par (BIG injectors & fuel pumps). Why is does everyone think you need to build a diff motor for it? U simply need more fuel with E85, and you benefit from having high compression, or turbo in my case.

I realized that e85 is much higher octane than 93. So in that case it was MUCH safer to use on a stock block (read: not iron sleeved) motor. This way one accidental bad tank of 93 octane wouldnt blow the 3-4k dollars I had in the motor. Also it was a WAY cheaper alternative to have 2 tunes and running 93 or trying to drive around on race gas.

BTW you must have never got that turbo 408 running cause factory injectors would prob peak out on motor running E85.. Why do you think the teg is running 1600cc at 70% duty cycle when stock is 240cc?

So thanks for whatever lesson you were trying to teach
Mark06gsxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 10:42 AM   #20
ddgtomahawk
Write my name! \/
 
ddgtomahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alvin
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 5,493

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2016 R1
2001 Honda CBR929 RE
2005 Honda CBR600RR
2007 R6S






Factory injectors can compensate for E-85 by increasing injector pulse, so on a factory vehicle you WOULD NOT need bigger injectors the 408 needed huge injectors to compensate for the volume of air being shoved down it, not because of just the E-85. We did have to allow for the E-85 and go with slightly larger than normal for the build, but its because of how much fuel we needed. A factory vehicle with flex fuel can run it period. And what do you mean by you benefit from high compression from E-85? Because with E-85 you can run higher compression? Or the fuel causes higher compression?
__________________


Come here you little cake eating sieg heil .
ddgtomahawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Advertisement


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 AM.


MotoHouston.com is not responsible for the content posted by users.
Privacy Policy