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Old 11-25-2009, 06:41 PM   #1
mx6er
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Unhappy slow starter cranking...

so i have a slow cranking starter... lets go back to that blessed week and half ago when i was on the way to pp1. started it no problems, geared up etc.. rode there and then sat in traffic for a little bit. naturally vtwins dont like trafic and it started to get a little hot. 220 and i cut it off, light goes green, i crank it back up, ride to destination (manually) turn on fans to let it cool a bit and shut it off. i didnt notice wether or not it cranked slow or not at first b/c i had ear plugs on.

get to destination turn bike off BS with the pples for like 5 minutes and saddled up to get some gas (in the same lot...) pushed starter button and it goes WWWAAAAAHHHHH WWWAAAAHHHHH WAH WAH WAH vroom... i was like this is the first time i've ever had this happen on the bike


get gas, start up again (see above..) finish my ride etc.

get home went to cycle gear warrantied the battery (just because). went home to diagnose. hooked up a jumper battery: same result. took apart starting circuit primary wires and cleaned/greased including battery and get same result. replaced primary battery wire with new one and added an extra ground (all 8 AWG wire) same result. take apart starter.

took apart starter and saw that brushes were somewhat worn, commutator was slightly discolored so i polished it back up (per service manual instructions) with 400 grit DRY. tested the armature/commutator via continuity test (service manual instructions) replaced the brush assembly with OEM suzuki part. cleaned everything up via air and same result even with extra juice supplied via another battery


new battery new brushes, connections cleaned up and same result

ibethelost

cliffnotes b/c i know thats alot of to read

-go for ride, cranks up fine,
-sit in traffic for a little- 220 and i turn it off
-get to destination turn on fans to let it cool off a bit
-5 mins later go to get gas and slow crank
-new battery, new OEM brushes, clean connections new primary wire and ground (except relay to starter wire)

note: i dont feel like buying $300 starter...

thanks in advance...

Last edited by mx6er; 11-25-2009 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:53 PM   #2
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Hahahahh. Wow. Ok first off if you have any battery other than a yuasa or one of the expensive $200+ batteries chances are your not gonna have the juice to start the bike in the colder weather. Second beause you are riding a big twin that has a lot of compression this kinda stuff is gonna happen often. U gotta keep the battery on a tender
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:57 PM   #3
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i ride it daily and it has only started happening since then. yes i realize it is cold out side and it effects cranking but not like what i have.

2. yes. i know, big vtwin with no compression reliefs. but it has never had a problem cranking til now. it just came up on me, IMO it has nothing to do with weather because week and half ago it was nice and before that i've started it in like low 50's when the cold first came and no problems there. if needed i'll make a vid...

starts off slow and then speeds up a little until it starts

your solution/argument is battery power, BUT i have added another battery (jumper battery they usually run at 13+volts and is twice the size of my bike's battery) and get the same result.

Last edited by mx6er; 11-25-2009 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:01 PM   #4
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not tryin to pick a fight just trying to fix my problem. i appreciate your input though
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:06 PM   #5
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Maybe the starter clutch getting weak?
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:31 PM   #6
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^^^ so you remember the busa? lol


If you can hear the starter turning freely but the engine isnt your clutch is going out.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaligoneTx View Post
^^^ so you remember the busa? lol


If you can hear the starter turning freely but the engine isnt your clutch is going out.
school/edumacate me on starter clutch please, operation and inspection

my problem/symptom is extremely similar to a weak battery... just slow cranking for the first2 seconds or so and then it speeds up a little until the motor fires.

engine and starter turn together.

i have bypassed the starter relay also and get the same cranking results... only thing i have left is to upgrade to 4awg wiring but that is excessive and unnecessary IMO because i am basicaly stock no internal high comp mods or nothing and the stock wiring is 8awg and has held up fine, why would it just cut out?
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:55 PM   #8
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I starter clutch spinning would sound like a failed solenoid on a car, or like a slapping noise as it slips. By characteristics of failure are the only way I know they are faulting. Its not extensive to replace them. And sometimes the needle bearings can be damaged and cause slipping too.

It wouldnt be a slow crank to cranking the engine. That can be resistance in the starter to ground or even in the terminals at the battery. Are you sure the battery is good? If you piggy back the bike by hooking up cables to a car does it start normally? Likely a battery.

In its general form, the power wire off the battery goes to a relay, when energized the power goes out to the starter. Anything in that system that holds excessive resistance is amperage that takes away from the starter.

It cranks slowly at first because the resistance is great in the pistons and once the pistons are in motion it has less resistance, so the starter putting out the same amount of amerage can spin it faster (voltage consistant.) In a car, 12.7v is 100% charge. 12.5 is 80% charge and 12.2v is 50% charge when there isnt a surface charge on the battery. Why such a drop(generally speaking) it has to do with the amperage volume (cca) availability.

So make sure the bike is charged up well. All my bikes in cold weather are under great strain to get going. Mine sit outside in the elements.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:05 PM   #9
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It sounds like you know what you are doing but just to be sure...
when you added the ground wire you made sure there was bare metal to bare metal (no paint, powdercoat,etc.) right?
Ground wires are to engine or chassis?
When you bypassed the starter relay you had plenty of wire diameter, right?
You covered the bases pretty well the only other thing I can think of is to find a TL1000 forum and see what they say.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:23 PM   #10
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cali: thanks for crash course in starter clutch and yes the other stuff i am extremely familiar with i know understand everything that was mentioned (electrical) and was hoping someone would go into details like you did.

for the relay bypass. i used a wrench. and to further confirm i removed the primary wires from their repective locations and clamped them together with pliers to ensure good connection same results.

for the piggy back/jump. yes i basically hooked it up to a car battery
the only side note is that i used a jump box. because of more voltage and capacity. more voltage=faster cranking=help diagnosis


mine also sits outside in the element when im not at home.

for what its worth:when i turned the battery for warranty i decided to check for parasitic drain just because and it read a constant 13.2 overnight. and the new battery after the initial charge help at about 12.9

addition ground via 8awg ground goes from battery to a CLEAN FRAME connection (should i try engine connection??? does it affect it that much???). quality of wire = for audio systems (i used to be pretty deep in that)

the only thing thats left: i had mentioned earlier 4AWG system, new starter $$$

and the only diagnosis thing that i havent done is jump via car battery and go strait from battery to starter, bypassing OEM starter primary wire...

Last edited by mx6er; 11-25-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:34 PM   #11
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I don't think it would matter much unless the engine is rubber mounted in a way that electrically isolates it from the frame.
I really don't know what else you could do except try the straight to starter connection.
Keep us posted...
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:39 PM   #12
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blah!!! i'll do more checking/diagnosing tomorrow, just trying to get more ideas. like i said if needed i'll make a vid and find a way to post up.

tomorrow: i'll hook up a car battery and use the bikes wiring. then i'll jump it strait to the starter: results pending for tomorrow.

also will pop open the connections again and clean them again (even though i know it wont do much)

possibly change the additional ground over to engine??

personally i didnt bother to jump strait to starter well because: my reasoning, wire is generally in good condition: insulation is not cracked, worn, exposed. and its been cranking good daily as long as i've had it. relay can loose connection/ short out, i've seen and experienced this before. but a wire doesnt just out and get "weak" within a ride

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Old 11-25-2009, 08:44 PM   #13
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To standing resistance in a circuit use voltage drop.

Use a DVOM(digital volt ohm meter) and put one connection on the battery post, the other on the cable metal. If there is a difference in voltage, there is resistance in the connection.

You can do this check on any wires/components while they are connected to the power circuit. Any voltage seen on the multimeter is loss in the system.

These connections can be checked while cranking on an active voltage drop circuit to check the draw while heat or energy is applied to the wire.

Make sure the DVOM is set to the DCV range. And I recomment 4v range.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:57 PM   #14
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crank voltage drop measurement was done before i warrantied battery. (battery had to get shipped) using an analog meter (so i can see the sweep, and peak bottom.) whilst cranking at first would dip to high 10's and naturally rise because of less resistance and faster turning.

i have not measured drop with the new battery though.

digital is kinda hard to get an accurate reading because of the "play" time but i will keep a charger on it and try my best to get accurate and consistent reading
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:29 PM   #15
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Take the black plug that plugs into the starter relay and unplug it.
Look inside the plug, you'll probaBly see one of the terminals melted and the pin connection is twisted. You'll need a new plug and thongsterminals. The TLs are notoriuos for that and it's probably your issue. Either that or the relay itself is bad.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Take the black plug that plugs into the starter relay and unplug it.
Look inside the plug, you'll probaBly see one of the terminals melted and the pin connection is twisted. You'll need a new plug and thongsterminals. The TLs are notoriuos for that and it's probably your issue. Either that or the relay itself is bad.
thanks for the info patrick, yea I've read up on the tl's and their starter relay corrosion etc... Which can lead to charging starting n power supply/ light dimming problems etc. But I have bypassed the relay and gotten the same results. Anything else u can think of? Only thing left is the wire to starter or the armature is semiburned
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:21 PM   #17
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Make sure your ground connection is good / clean.
The armatures typically don't go bad on those, were there any blue / burnt spots?
I THINK I have a starter at the shop. You'll have to wait till Tuesday for me to look, but if I do you're welcome to it, free.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Make sure your ground connection is good / clean.
The armatures typically don't go bad on those, were there any blue / burnt spots?
I THINK I have a starter at the shop. You'll have to wait till Tuesday for me to look, but if I do you're welcome to it, free.
Info was posted above but, no burns, just slight discolored commutator which was polished/cleaned with 400 grit dry.
Ground connections were cleaned and I'll clean it again tomorrow even though it think it won't change much. And also added an additional 8awg ground wire was added
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Make sure your ground connection is good / clean.
The armatures typically don't go bad on those, were there any blue / burnt spots?
I THINK I have a starter at the shop. You'll have to wait till Tuesday for me to look, but if I do you're welcome to it, free.
Dang Patrick first it's free advice and now free parts?
I thought you were tryin' to make a living!
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:02 PM   #20
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update: jumping via car battery added to battery and strait to starter did not help.

Got any ideas?
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