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Old 10-26-2009, 03:41 AM   #81
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Next time you pick up a hooker, are you just gonna kiss her?!

Say you get a new 4-wheeler... you gonna ride it gingerly and keep it clean or are you gonna go tear up a muddy field?!

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Old 10-26-2009, 03:56 AM   #82
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I am sorry if I came off as bashing anyone. Quite the contrary, I am looking for ideas and thoughts as to what we all can do better, to make sure everyone gets back home. I know all the "normal" group leaders go wayyyy outta their way to try and keep everyone sane and safe.

A lot of good discussion here and very little bashing, which is appreciated.

If nothing else, hopefully new riders to these groups will "think" a little while reading thru this and keep themselves in check a little more.

I'll go one step further and put this offer out there.. since I work offshore and have 28 days off every other month, if there are new riders who want to go try out these roads in smaller groups or even one on one, hit me up. I can ride pretty much any day of the week when I am home. I can can go as slow and relaxed as you want to stay in YOUR comfort zone.

If nothing else this gives people the option to get their feet wet and try out new roads and skills.
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:38 AM   #83
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See you al at the next group ride! I can't wait!
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:05 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helios View Post
I enjoy the forest rides, it's just a shame that so many jump on the bashing wagon when something like this goes down. That's my input, hope it helps. Hope to have more forest rides with you guys too....
Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
I am sorry if I came off as bashing anyone. Quite the contrary, I am looking for ideas and thoughts as to what we all can do better, to make sure everyone gets back home. I know all the "normal" group leaders go wayyyy outta their way to try and keep everyone sane and safe.

I'll go one step further and put this offer out there.. since I work offshore and have 28 days off every other month, if there are new riders who want to go try out these roads in smaller groups or even one on one, hit me up. I can ride pretty much any day of the week when I am home. I can can go as slow and relaxed as you want to stay in YOUR comfort zone.

If nothing else this gives people the option to get their feet wet and try out new roads and skills.

I wasn't refering to this thread in general. I think a friend of the downed rider made a thread and there was some bashing there and also on the initial Noob Forest Ride thread.



I would actually like to take you up on this offer. Ever since my first time in the forest I've been interested in memorizing the route, for nothing more than the sake of experience.
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:21 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helios View Post
I would actually like to take you up on this offer. Ever since my first time in the forest I've been interested in memorizing the route, for nothing more than the sake of experience.
As long as you aren't try to memorize the road meaning the turns; doing that on a public roadway is a recipe for disaster. Too many things change day to day or even hour to hour.

If you mean the routes, no prob. I know more than a few ways to get to and from!
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:45 AM   #86
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I'd be willing to bet if 60 riders of all skill levels went out and rode a specified route individually, at least one rider would go down. On one forest ride this year everyone made it through safe and sound, only to find out that a rider posted that he had crashed turning into his neighborhood.

It's not that large groups are more dangerous, it's just that the odds are increased that someone will go down.

I've witnessed a rider go down doing parade laps.
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Old 10-26-2009, 07:07 AM   #87
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I'd be willing to bet if 60 riders of all skill levels went out and rode a specified route individually, at least one rider would go down. On one forest ride this year everyone made it through safe and sound, only to find out that a rider posted that he had crashed turning into his neighborhood.

It's not that large groups are more dangerous, it's just that the odds are increased that someone will go down.

I've witnessed a rider go down doing parade laps.
I completely agree.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:03 AM   #88
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maybe it is all the new rides not knowing limits the road and not knowing how to ride in a groups
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:18 AM   #89
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Ultimately I cannot ride anyone else's bike for them when Im on my own.

Moreover, many dont practice riding regularly but memorization of their neighborhood corners/offramps/etc. That builds over exaggerated confidence for their skill level.

There are several riders that will ride the forest well through memorization but slow down for fayetteville or livingston... why? because they ride through memorization. Not only is that unsafe for the roads you think you know, but it is dangerous if your ego is put in check when you're slower on other rides.

Here is my general pre-ride meeting message I usually pm to people that ask for it(I know deano has used it):

General Forest Gnome Mandatory Pre-Ride Meeting

Welcomes to the ride;


Route plan; where we are going, eating and where ride ends.

Bike precautions:
Be sure to check your tires before each ride, not only for air pressure but also for tread depth. Check chain for looseness and kinks. We also recommend a light and brake pad check to ensure the bike is functioning properly and not going to cause confusion for others in the group. Always come gassed up and ready to ride. At the appointed stops check your gas and ask if you have any questions.

Rider precautions:
Hope everyone got a good night sleep. Remember on hotter days to hydrate yourself constantly. Once you hit dehydration your body will not recover by drinking water. You will lose much ability to control your bike and put others at risk. So precaution, precaution.

Gear:
Thank you everyone for wearing your gear. We recommend and require gear due to the nature of these rides. Helmet, jacket, gloves are always required. We recommend ankle-covering boots if not riding boots for the simple fact that shoes are usually the first to come off in an accident. Since more people use their hands and feet regularly for work and in life, guard them appropriately. A good spine protector can slide into your existing jacket or even replace the back foam as you wear it.(demonstrate a good protector cannot be flexed backwards on itself.) If not wearing lower leathers, we also recommend kevlar enforced jeans and knee/shin protection. Jeans tear very easy and knee injuries are very common even among low speed let offs. There are several types of jackets from textile, mesh to leather(speak about plastic-injection vs foam and decent gear fit.)

Route:(normal)

We will be leaving the gas station, heading up to 1488 where we will be heading west until Honey Egypt. If the group separates at the lights, dont worry. We will regroup at honey egypt and at 2854. Riding 2854 through 105 to 149. In Richards we will regroup and take side roads to 1774 to the first stop at the gas station at 1774 and 90. From there we will split into our groups to ride 3090. At the very end of 3090 we will turn left on 244 and go across 30 to Yankees on the Right. Honey Egypt is a residential road. There is no need to pass vehicles etc. Respect the people that live there. Consider the whole ride up to Richards a warm up; no one should feel pressured to speed or even pass vehicles. The whole group should be able to move together through the area.

Group:
On the ride to 3090 we will have a main leader and sweeper. At every intersection where we change course we will stop and wait for visual confirmation the sweeper has everyone. If for some reason we dont see them, we will appoint one go back person that knows the roads and can let us know whats going on. If someone does go off or down, listen to ride leaders and Forest Gnomes. Unfortunately we have been through this many a times and will guide everyone through it. If we ask you to continue on down the road; dont feel bad about it. We dont need to congest the road or put others in harms way for being along side it. We will mask off the corner w a signal bike in the front and back of the corner etc.

Rules:
The objective of the ride is to have fun and respect the group. Drop your egos at the door, we dont care about how much of a bad azz you are on your bike. We ride w MSF/Road King rules of 1 sec staggered formation w the person staggered infront of you. On the back roads, the gap should go to 2 seconds for the safety of all the riders in the group. If you find people are bunching behind you in the corners and you are losing them in the straights, let them pass. Dont make their ride less enjoyable by congesting them. If you are going to pass, do so in the opposing lane, far from others. Look over your shoulder and signal before passing and beaware others may have the same idea. if you do pass a vehicle, dont stop, keep going. There may be others behind you expecting to pass within the same session as you took the car in. If you need to stunt, which we advice against, do it in the other lane while everyone else knows you are doing it. Allow someone in if we are riding and they overshoot their mark for passing a vehicle or biker. Again, this is not a race.

Lastely, if there is a problem with your bike get the attention of a leader or the sweeper. If the group needs to separate so you can limp the bike w a sweeper better to do that earlier then later.


If this is your first ride with us, especially on 3090, we ask that you ride in the back group regardless of skill level. All but 2 crashes/run offs of over 3 dozen crashes in the last 2 year span of Forest Gnome Rides has been people not wanting to ride in the back group and stepping out too early. Use common sense. If you are in a group that is too fast for you, fall back. Done try to keep up. There will always be another group coming behind you to pick you up. Above all, keep it safe and enjoy the ride.


The groups will adjust to the riders. We may add more/less groups depending on size and riding speeds. This is will immenent while we ride up 149 and decided before 3090.

If you have under 6 months of experience or under 1k miles, please come speak to use before the ride.

Gear up in 5minutes.



3090:

We are about to leave for 3090; heading down 90 west to the cutover road three passing lanes down on the right next to the auction house. Keep caution at the beginning of 3090 and raise your speed as you continue on it. 3090 is split into two sections, at the first stop is where 149 dead ends into it; turn left. At the end of the second, 244 intersects; we will be heading left at 244, pass 30 at the stop sign and continuing to Yankees on the right.

We will have ____ groups for this part of the ride. Last group will ride the speed limit 60mph, constantly unless passing Tim's or Dave's corner out of respect for them. Full hand singals will be used and some corners will be slower then the speed limit for group safety. If the group gets spread out, the leader will slow down to keep everyone together. This will also happen in the straights. There are 2 turns rated at 15mph; one in the beginning, the other, squid falls, in the second part. Go 15 mph on these corners.

Middle group will be running ____(usually 15-20mph) over the speed limit on average. If this is your first time down 3090, stay in the back group.

First group is mainly track riders/experienced riders on this road and do their own thing. They have ridden w eachother before and trust eachother. Talk to them if you are interested in riding in their group.

If necessary, have a private group for riders requiring a little more instruction and slower pace. This is invite only and not discussed in the group other then saying there will be a final group that will be riding slower. This group will need more attention and the ride catored to them alot more.

Gear up in 5.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:20 AM   #90
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If after all this, and our leaders accomidating riders... and they still go down; there isnt any more I can do about it other then not putting together group rides.

If you're riding over 50-70% of your ability on a ride, you should drop back.

I guarantee almost 100% of the wrecks are people riding above that or missing a detail they overlooked. Accidents happen.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:24 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaligoneTx View Post
Ultimately I cannot ride anyone else's bike for them when Im on my own.

Moreover, many dont practice riding regularly but memorization of their neighborhood corners/offramps/etc. That builds over exaggerated confidence for their skill level.

There are several riders that will ride the forest well through memorization but slow down for fayetteville or livingston... why? because they ride through memorization. Not only is that unsafe for the roads you think you know, but it is dangerous if your ego is put in check when you're slower on other rides.

Here is my general pre-ride meeting message I usually pm to people that ask for it(I know deano has used it):

General Forest Gnome Mandatory Pre-Ride Meeting

Welcomes to the ride;


Route plan; where we are going, eating and where ride ends.

Bike precautions:
Be sure to check your tires before each ride, not only for air pressure but also for tread depth. Check chain for looseness and kinks. We also recommend a light and brake pad check to ensure the bike is functioning properly and not going to cause confusion for others in the group. Always come gassed up and ready to ride. At the appointed stops check your gas and ask if you have any questions.

Rider precautions:
Hope everyone got a good night sleep. Remember on hotter days to hydrate yourself constantly. Once you hit dehydration your body will not recover by drinking water. You will lose much ability to control your bike and put others at risk. So precaution, precaution.

Gear:
Thank you everyone for wearing your gear. We recommend and require gear due to the nature of these rides. Helmet, jacket, gloves are always required. We recommend ankle-covering boots if not riding boots for the simple fact that shoes are usually the first to come off in an accident. Since more people use their hands and feet regularly for work and in life, guard them appropriately. A good spine protector can slide into your existing jacket or even replace the back foam as you wear it.(demonstrate a good protector cannot be flexed backwards on itself.) If not wearing lower leathers, we also recommend kevlar enforced jeans and knee/shin protection. Jeans tear very easy and knee injuries are very common even among low speed let offs. There are several types of jackets from textile, mesh to leather(speak about plastic-injection vs foam and decent gear fit.)

Route:(normal)

We will be leaving the gas station, heading up to 1488 where we will be heading west until Honey Egypt. If the group separates at the lights, dont worry. We will regroup at honey egypt and at 2854. Riding 2854 through 105 to 149. In Richards we will regroup and take side roads to 1774 to the first stop at the gas station at 1774 and 90. From there we will split into our groups to ride 3090. At the very end of 3090 we will turn left on 244 and go across 30 to Yankees on the Right. Honey Egypt is a residential road. There is no need to pass vehicles etc. Respect the people that live there. Consider the whole ride up to Richards a warm up; no one should feel pressured to speed or even pass vehicles. The whole group should be able to move together through the area.

Group:
On the ride to 3090 we will have a main leader and sweeper. At every intersection where we change course we will stop and wait for visual confirmation the sweeper has everyone. If for some reason we dont see them, we will appoint one go back person that knows the roads and can let us know whats going on. If someone does go off or down, listen to ride leaders and Forest Gnomes. Unfortunately we have been through this many a times and will guide everyone through it. If we ask you to continue on down the road; dont feel bad about it. We dont need to congest the road or put others in harms way for being along side it. We will mask off the corner w a signal bike in the front and back of the corner etc.

Rules:
The objective of the ride is to have fun and respect the group. Drop your egos at the door, we dont care about how much of a bad azz you are on your bike. We ride w MSF/Road King rules of 1 sec staggered formation w the person staggered infront of you. On the back roads, the gap should go to 2 seconds for the safety of all the riders in the group. If you find people are bunching behind you in the corners and you are losing them in the straights, let them pass. Dont make their ride less enjoyable by congesting them. If you are going to pass, do so in the opposing lane, far from others. Look over your shoulder and signal before passing and beaware others may have the same idea. if you do pass a vehicle, dont stop, keep going. There may be others behind you expecting to pass within the same session as you took the car in. If you need to stunt, which we advice against, do it in the other lane while everyone else knows you are doing it. Allow someone in if we are riding and they overshoot their mark for passing a vehicle or biker. Again, this is not a race.

Lastely, if there is a problem with your bike get the attention of a leader or the sweeper. If the group needs to separate so you can limp the bike w a sweeper better to do that earlier then later.


If this is your first ride with us, especially on 3090, we ask that you ride in the back group regardless of skill level. All but 2 crashes/run offs of over 3 dozen crashes in the last 2 year span of Forest Gnome Rides has been people not wanting to ride in the back group and stepping out too early. Use common sense. If you are in a group that is too fast for you, fall back. Done try to keep up. There will always be another group coming behind you to pick you up. Above all, keep it safe and enjoy the ride.


The groups will adjust to the riders. We may add more/less groups depending on size and riding speeds. This is will immenent while we ride up 149 and decided before 3090.

If you have under 6 months of experience or under 1k miles, please come speak to use before the ride.

Gear up in 5minutes.



3090:

We are about to leave for 3090; heading down 90 west to the cutover road three passing lanes down on the right next to the auction house. Keep caution at the beginning of 3090 and raise your speed as you continue on it. 3090 is split into two sections, at the first stop is where 149 dead ends into it; turn left. At the end of the second, 244 intersects; we will be heading left at 244, pass 30 at the stop sign and continuing to Yankees on the right.

We will have ____ groups for this part of the ride. Last group will ride the speed limit 60mph, constantly unless passing Tim's or Dave's corner out of respect for them. Full hand singals will be used and some corners will be slower then the speed limit for group safety. If the group gets spread out, the leader will slow down to keep everyone together. This will also happen in the straights. There are 2 turns rated at 15mph; one in the beginning, the other, squid falls, in the second part. Go 15 mph on these corners.

Middle group will be running ____(usually 15-20mph) over the speed limit on average. If this is your first time down 3090, stay in the back group.

First group is mainly track riders/experienced riders on this road and do their own thing. They have ridden w eachother before and trust eachother. Talk to them if you are interested in riding in their group.

If necessary, have a private group for riders requiring a little more instruction and slower pace. This is invite only and not discussed in the group other then saying there will be a final group that will be riding slower. This group will need more attention and the ride catored to them alot more.

Gear up in 5.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:26 AM   #92
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they way i see it on a noob ride is that a majority of the time the sweeper should be able to see the leader. If there is 60 people on the ride then that may not always be possible but the sweeper should at least be able to see the middle of the pack. a noob group ride is to teach people how to safely ride in a group and to show some possibly new roads to them. I would recommend a staggered formation, and increse the follow distance to 4 seconds. In the corners you form a single line. At no time should there be gaps so large that one person cannot see who is in front or behind them. That is my definition of a noob ride. If you don't set the pace down to the slowest person there then you shouldn't promote it as a noob ride. If you split it into groups with a fast group, a medium group and a slow group then you are not on a noob ride. If you want to go with the fast group, set up your own ride. I know of one person who learned their limits on the group ride... they were scared of getting lost in an area that did not know so they felt like they had to do 100mph in the straights to try to catch back up. they only went on the ride because it was a "noob" ride...
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:30 AM   #93
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What can a rider learn or be taught in a group of 60 riders? Or a group of 20 riders, for that matter? If it's really going to be a noob ride, it's needs to be broken down into groups of about ten. This has been done successfully many times. It's not rocket science.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:34 AM   #94
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What can a rider learn or be taught in a group of 60 riders? Or a group of 20 riders, for that matter? If it's really going to be a noob ride, it's needs to be broken down into groups of about ten. This has been done successfully many times. It's not rocket science.
but the groups all need to have the same mentality, that it is a NOOB ride. keeping with your logic, what is better; a slow group with 10 noobs and all the faster, more experienced riders in the front groups, or, 5 small groups of mostly experienced riders with 2 noobs in each group?
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:37 AM   #95
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I have to agree with both of your points, Sbfuller and Maxg's. If you are doing a dedicated noob ride, then you really need to cater only to them.

And the only way is to have a good mix of noob and experience.

And you have to specify it is for noob riders, OR riders new to the roads in that area that have experience and skills to handle the unknown roads.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #96
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if that is the case then they are going too fast. as a group leader you should be well aware of the roads and what turns lie ahead. an able leader should be able to spend a lot of time looking in the mirror to ensure that he's not leaving riders behind. I've led a group of 15 or so riders before and found no issue in checking the mirrors to make sure everyone was still there
There is the difference. I'm not talking about ensuring the "riders are still there". You've seen just as much of the strange stuff as I have, riding in the middle of a pack. Body position, feet position, how they turn in, braking, use of the throttle. You can't see these things from the front in order to offer guidance.


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Old 10-26-2009, 09:02 AM   #97
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There is the difference. I'm not talking about ensuring the "riders are still there". You've seen just as much of the strange stuff as I have, riding in the middle of a pack. Body position, feet position, how they turn in, braking, use of the throttle. You can't see these things from the front in order to offer guidance.


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I agree with that, the leader should just be responsible for the overall speed of the group and to try to minimize the go fast to catch up/ slow down that is so prevalent in the middle of group rides. try to stay as constant as possible
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Its the stupidity. It gets added to our forum in normal and controlled doses which actually serves to the benefit of the website.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:16 AM   #98
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But again this is a ride and I'll never claim to be an instructor.

I always mention this is an opportunity to improve your riding skills. I merely organize it and provide protection by riding at a pace with them and using hand signals to inform them of known problem areas along the way.

Come to think about it, I cant think of any of the riders that have been patient enough to ride in the third group a few times before stepping out to faster groups that have had any problems. They are all still around.

I agree w the smaller rides. I had a small group Saturday as did mudbug. I also had three with me(Princess, JustNick, Bevo) to help lead.

So maybe its back to rider ego or false sense of experience?

We had a rider that admitted last weekend on mudbugs forest ride(not the noob ride) that he just got his first bike, a 1k cuz hes a large guy. He did wear his gear etc. At the shell station we had our group talk; I did the whole "first time 3090 stay with me" but as we geared up he took off after the first group. I merely shrugged my shoulders and comfortably led the ten with me incl sweeper to Yankees.

There's never going to be an easy answer and no matter how much you plan you are dealing w individuals. Yes, if you are truly a green noob you should only be riding w a couple people etc until your confidence in cornering improves.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:36 AM   #99
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Tho' I haven't been on a MH group ride, I've been on a few.

First off, thanks should be given to those willing to initiate and lead a noob, or controlled pace ride and to those willing to help. They pass up the turns and straights every ride that they'd like to enjoy at a 'brisker' pace for the sake of educating the newbies.

I've rode and crashed on the forest roads from '76 to the late 80s. A great place for the noob, if at a controlled pace. Noobs are generally full of anxiety to begin with. Their first couple of group rides raise that level as group riding in itself is a new skill set for most and, of course there are other riders 'watching'. Stressing the fact that it's just a great day to be on a motorcycle may help some.

Perhaps more frequent stops for discussion and group shifting would be a positive thing, but it seems the leaders are doing as fine a job as humanly possible already. Dealing with newbies that are in the 'dangerous to all within visual range' (riders returning to the sport following a long hiatus should be included, IMHO as I was there) catagory is tough. Perhaps signing a liability waiver at the start of the ride will encourage a bit of responsibility.

Newbies riding in and at the gray area of their comfort zone will no doubt be a more confident and competent rider following one of these rides. While there weren't track days when I first started riding, now that there is every newbie should be encouraged to participate in at least a couple.

Brad
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #100
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i don't like big rides, riding with strangers, or publicly advertised rides. this weekend was an exception as i attended the noob forest ride. big rides make me nervous. it was still fun, but i'm on extra alert mode.
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