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Old 10-25-2009, 06:16 PM   #61
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So other then going round and round like pyrofallout's 20 some page from a year ago about the dangers of the forest group rides, any other constructive critism?

Its a group ride, if people dont ride together, the group is broken up. Whos fault is it to make sure you know who the leader is?

This is going back to people saying we should mark all the dangerous corners w flouresant paint

The leader was wearing full leathers on a zx7r two up; I was in full red leathers on a blue katana... nearly everyone there knew who I was; and Mudbug led out the group after staging.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:26 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haileyan View Post
That is a shame. I love group rides. It is the best way to meet folks that share my passion.
There are other venues for meeting riders, but yeah, I know what you mean.

IMO, the issue here is with new riders. If they are riding with a coach/mentor, then that may be a good thing but without a pack of other riders. Trying to mix socializing with acquiring/improving a new skill set, IMO is a formula for disaster. There is (1) the "I have to keep up with the pact" issue, (2) the issue of not looking like a "squid", (3) issues of group acceptance, and (4) a whole host of other psycho-babble depending on the individual. Too much processing IMO for a new rider who should only be concentrating on his/her riding skill set. I do not see how riding in a group improves the skill set of a new rider. In fact it may hinder it by the acquisition of bad habits like "sharing a lane", or worse, stopping at a canteen with the group for "just one" beer.

For the experienced rider, riding with a group of two or three others is good if the three are compatible and get along, IMO. Anyway, usually the older or more experienced one gets, the less one cares about keeping up with any group. So maybe group riding should be just for the experienced.

However, it may be that I am too picky. To date all of my rides to Mexico have been solo. While there are some great guys I would ride with here in the US across the country in groups of 2-3 riders, I would hesitate to ride with them to Mexico. It would simply involve too much baby-sitting, and the group would focus inward on itself, instead of focus outward on the foreign adventure. This is why a lot of the riders at ADVrider.com ride alone.

It's an interesting topic and always makes for a good conversation.

Cheers,

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Old 10-25-2009, 06:36 PM   #63
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Unless you actually KNOW who led what portions of the ride with which groups of people, and how "fast" the experienced guys rode, perhaps it's best not to ASSUME. Ya think?
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:40 PM   #64
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Well we all have different skill levels ,experience and bikes with different envelopes of performance.
Before going on a group ride each rider should have a good assessment of their abilities and their bikes abilities within their scope of operation. A 3 mo. NOOB on an R1 is an accident waiting to happen it’s a given. Consider no riders with less than 6 Mo experience. Helmet. Jacket, gloves and foot wear a must PERIOD.
The larger the group the more likely of an incident.
Consider breaking the groups up into no more than 10 riders per group and each group leaving approx 15 minutes apart. Each group lead by a competent experienced rider to include experience with the roads. All other riders in the group should be of similar skill levels – heck other than the lead bike the grouping could be based on like size chicken strips, it’s the only visual guideline you have. Then assign a competent sweeper with each group. No Alcohol to be consumed during the ride or 12 hours before.

Just some quick thoughts.

This is a sport that can easily take your life or cripple you permantly.
It's not high school football etc.
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Old 10-25-2009, 07:01 PM   #65
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Quote:
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heck other than the lead bike the grouping could be based on like size chicken strips, it’s the only visual guideline you have.

I like what you are saying, but i don't think we should classify someone by their chicken strips...what if they are a very experienced rider with new tires? or new rider that bought a used bike (with used tires)?

i think we can only take everyone's word for it...or maybe do a better job one which group is which. I seem to remember people saying they got caught up with the fast group on accident...

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We had a small ride this morning up to Livingston that couldn't have been better. Just five of us, ranging in experience from lifetime to six months. It was perfect, because those with experience were respectful enough to ride at a pace that was educational to our noob.
it was badass!
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Old 10-25-2009, 07:05 PM   #66
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#1 problem I see: if you're not a noob and don't want to ride at slower pace - DON'T COME ON THE NOOB RIDE!
stop yelling at me



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Old 10-25-2009, 07:07 PM   #67
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I didn't even see you out there! You were too fast!
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:07 PM   #68
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I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I will say this: The rider that crashed was NOT part of the noob "ride". He met up like everyone else at the gas station, the ride started, the fast people went ahead. There were 2 groups ahead of the "noob" riders led by Dustin. He was NOT in Dustin's group. As Dustin said before the ride started (and I'm just paraphrasing here), "I will keep my pace, if you wanna ride off, then you're on your own".

I belive this guy was on his own. Just my opinion.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:10 PM   #69
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It was a good ride and, comparatively, incident free. Haters will be haters.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:16 PM   #70
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It was a good ride and, comparatively, incident free. Haters will be haters.
your leadership skills are 2nd to none

How dare they add on to Honea Egypt and not notify us
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:19 PM   #71
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Thanks for the support Chase.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:21 PM   #72
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look, last year when i started riding with a lot of these people, including my first forest gnome ride, things were not very different. there were always guys who disappeared out front. what makes then different from now? that it's labeled "newb"? like hooli said, why cant it just be a ride?
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:24 PM   #73
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Thanks for the support Chase.
, he brought out the jagoff smiley


i didnt mean it
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:31 PM   #74
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i've learned so much in the group rides, talking to people like Curt, Cali and Cdill has helped me to become a better rider, i've made bunch of friends also. people that go down are usually the ones that will crash regardless of group rides or not. i believe being in a more challenging environment such as 3090 or forest increases the probability of them crashing. most of the time they get in trouble cause they don't know their limit (including myself), another big problem is Target Fixation, about third of the riders i've talked to after crash admit to looking at where they were trying to avoid.
anyway, group rides are good fun once in a while, leaders do a wonderful job of explaining the rules and dangers, it's just people being arses not knowing their limits most of the time.

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Old 10-25-2009, 09:09 PM   #75
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Half of the group rides I've been on were with the OP and have seen the freak accidents (such as the busa guy going down) and friends go down. I think most of it has to do with the route being taken. Just like the track you have to be familiar with it to go fast and you have to know the corners & what to expect..

I think it was brought up before to make noobs ride in the rear & go slow, if its their first time on that route. Also the riders meetings (dannyboy style) are a great idea and I believe are very helpful.

I learned the hard way about inviting someone on a ride that could be over their head. Its all better for them cause it made them want to learn to ride better and start track, but the possibilities of what could have happened is what haunts me.
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:48 PM   #76
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Noobs should learn at the track in a controlled environment. First time track riders work with the instructor on the session immediately following the round robin. The instructor can provide immediate feedback to that rider if they see anything that puts him/her or someone else in danger. This is impossible on noob rides. There is no way to accomplish this on a group noob ride.

Maybe the ride should be called something else if 3090 or the forest is involved. A true noob ride should travel over roads that are not technical and should be small with an experienced rider for every noob.

Any noobs reading this should a do a track day and you will learn 10x's the things over these forest rides. After that track day you could easily ride 3090 or the forest with confidence. if you make a mistake at the track you have room to correct it. The street is not so forgiving.

And as curt said passing is allowed in straights after the round robin and in the corners after lunch as long as it's on the outside.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:17 AM   #77
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Noobs should learn at the track in a controlled environment. First time track riders work with the instructor on the session immediately following the round robin. The instructor can provide immediate feedback to that rider if they see anything that puts him/her or someone else in danger. This is impossible on noob rides. There is no way to accomplish this on a group noob ride.

Maybe the ride should be called something else if 3090 or the forest is involved. A true noob ride should travel over roads that are not technical and should be small with an experienced rider for every noob.

Any noobs reading this should a do a track day and you will learn 10x's the things over these forest rides. After that track day you could easily ride 3090 or the forest with confidence. if you make a mistake at the track you have room to correct it. The street is not so forgiving.

And as curt said passing is allowed in straights after the round robin and in the corners after lunch as long as it's on the outside.
Hit the nail on the head! Only so much you can do. Ultimately you are the one in control of your bike. You can't expect to be babysat the entire ride.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:24 AM   #78
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:25 AM   #79
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Dustin, if you would like some input on Noob rides, here is mine:

~ Groups should try to be limited to about 12-15 including leader and sweeper for each group.

~ Leader and sweeper should wear some sort of identifying arm band with different colors for different groups.

~ There should be a map of the route printed along with several contact phone numbers and handed to noobs just in case they get lost.

~ Basic riding ettiquette should also be laid out. I had several riders passing me in my lane, riding next to or close behind me, even in the turns. Staggered formations, 2-seconds behind, no passing within the same lane, single file in the turns, etc etc...

~ There should be several stops along the way where the leader allows the sweeper to catch up. The sweeper should then update the leader as to the pace and ability of those he sees. Leader should adjust speed to compensate.

*** Reason*** When I saw the crashed rider, there was no one else around except for Sangria. His group had NO CLUE he was down. I do recall Sangria volunteering for sweeper although not positive if he was one. Also, when we did the return trip from College Station with Curt, he would stop ever so often at intersections and split turns for the entire group including sweeper to catch up. He gave the thumbs up and waited for everyone else to do so, then we continued. The ride was taken in large segments with a full rider check at each stop.

~ There should be more rules set up for when someone wrecks. At the wreck, everyone stopped and the formations got somewhat lost. Too many people stop to see "what happened". Once the group got the ok from the rider and those helping him, then everyone left in a large clump. No leader, no sweeper and our group actually almost got lost and passed up a turn.

~ The same rules should apply to gas stops. The leader and sweeper should notify the group that they are leaving and try to fall back in formation. I've gotten lost in the sea of bikes at gas stops too many times. Too many fractured groups leave without leader or sweeper. This is where noobs and novices get mixed in with the speed demons.

~ There should also be a bit more communication between riders when leaving Yankees. This gets a bit tricky because you will have different groups leaving at different times, with different skill levels heading into completely different directions. But maybe we could make some sort of effort to sort it out at the very least for the noobs.
















The first time I went to Yankees, the minute I sat down with my burger and took a bite, my group was already gearing up to leave. I took 2 bites and threw it away, geared up, followed my leader, then halfway in the forest the group split up and i had no clue which to follow. I eventually made it back to Tomball, and I still had to ride back to Katy.

My second time at Yankees I did a bit better but had to walk around asking complete strangers which way they were headed back and when were they leaving. Finally got a group that said the were headed back to SW side (close enough) but we ended up on 45N with only 2 riders actually headed to 59S.

I enjoy the forest rides, it's just a shame that so many jump on the bashing wagon when something like this goes down. That's my input, hope it helps. Hope to have more forest rides with you guys too....
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:58 AM   #80
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I have been trying not to post in this thread because it has all been gone over before. But here it goes:

As an experienced leader on many of these rides, I can honestly say for the most part, we do everything possible to keep people informed and safe.

I have been the "speaker" at many of the pre riders meetings, and always go over the route, passing rules, stunting rules, pace, and gear.

Have I told people they can't ride with us because they don't have gear? Yes. Have I seen a big guy riding a gixxer publically call out riders with no gear? Yes.

Always the leader, sweeper, and designated "go back" person exchange phone #'s and communication is the key.

We stress "NO MAN LEFT BEHIND," so no one should feel pressured to keep up.

At the more technical portions of the ride we split the group up further to keep people comfortable AND we straight up tell all riders that this part is more dangerous and to SLOW DOWN.

At the sharp corners or "danger zones" one rider generally pulls off and warns riders of the upcoming corner.

More is done for the sake of the rider, I just don't want to list everything here. If you have any questions about the organization of our rides I emplore you to come out and sample a GNOME ride for yourself. I feel confident an experienced leader can get "newbs" home safely.

In the end it is up to the person twisting the throttle to ride safe.

AND I have been involved with Texlurch's rides and I can honestly say he does it right.
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