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Old 10-15-2009, 08:41 AM   #1
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Removing the thermostat

let's have another go at this

who believes you should remove the thermostat in a track/race prepared bike to make the most of the cooling capability???

I remember Radar posted a very knowledgable piece on cavitation as a result of a lack of back pressure due to the removal of such but from what I'm still hearing and seeing this isn't stopping teams/riders from doing it!!

where do you stand on this??
I'm for it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:46 AM   #2
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:19 AM   #3
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In the old days of liquid cooling it was beneficial as thermal dynamics were secondary to cosmetics in motorcycle engine cooling. There wasn't a lot of thought that went into those cooling systems, so sometimes the thermostat was an impedance.

Nowadays it depends on the bike, but in my experience it offers no gains and can cause the aforementioned cavitation issues.
There's also the possibility that the water moves too quickly through the radiator and does not have enough time to shed all of it's heat.

There's still a lot of old school racers that do it, but as I stated, I've seen more problems caused by it's removal than cured by it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:20 AM   #4
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I disagree. The cooling process begins in the radiator. The inclusion of the termostat allows the system to hold the coolant in the radiator giving it opportunity to disappate the heat it has collected on its pass through the engine. Without a thermostat the coolant continues to circlulate through the engine uncontrolled and never stays in the radiator long enough to loose the heat that has built up. Yes on a track bike the vehicles movement is constant and heat doesn't build up like on a street bike at a stop light, but as we all know cool is better. Wouldn't you want to give your bike every chance you could for it to make as much power as possible.

Just my $.02
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:03 AM   #5
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Remove the spring and middle parts and leave the outside and you solve both problems at once. The outside part is all the restriction you need.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdh82831 View Post
I disagree. The cooling process begins in the radiator. The inclusion of the termostat allows the system to hold the coolant in the radiator giving it opportunity to disappate the heat it has collected on its pass through the engine. Without a thermostat the coolant continues to circlulate through the engine uncontrolled and never stays in the radiator long enough to loose the heat that has built up. Yes on a track bike the vehicles movement is constant and heat doesn't build up like on a street bike at a stop light, but as we all know cool is better. Wouldn't you want to give your bike every chance you could for it to make as much power as possible.
Cool is not always better.
You are also incorrect on which is cooler. Unrestricted flow/no thermostat will cool the engine more than restricted (cavitation excluded). If the water is hotter and moving faster (more turbulence) through the radiator it will shed more energy (heat) from the system per unit time. Any energy that is dissipated by the radiator is waste heat. Waste; as in not contributing to going fast. Water staying in the radiator longer is not required for per unit time dissipation of system heat; you are simply thinking localized energy states.
Removing the thermostat was a trick we would use on an old car that was overheating. The compromise was a reduction in fuel efficiency, warm up time, heater not warming for longer (a problem in Michigan), and an imperceptible loss of power.
I do not recommend removing the thermostat as people are doing a really good job on engineering these things. I didn't know about the cavitation, but it does make sense.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdh82831 View Post
I disagree. The cooling process begins in the radiator. The inclusion of the termostat allows the system to hold the coolant in the radiator giving it opportunity to disappate the heat it has collected on its pass through the engine. Without a thermostat the coolant continues to circlulate through the engine uncontrolled and never stays in the radiator long enough to loose the heat that has built up. Yes on a track bike the vehicles movement is constant and heat doesn't build up like on a street bike at a stop light, but as we all know cool is better. Wouldn't you want to give your bike every chance you could for it to make as much power as possible.

Just my $.02
the opening and closing of the thermostat is governed by the temperature on the water jacket side and is not dictated to by flow rate in the rad

Consider this:
Honda Racing Parts- Ten Kate http://www.tenkateracingproducts.com...ing.php?id=156
Suzuki GSXR Racing Parts- Yoshimura http://www.yoshimura-rd.com/t-kit_engineparts.aspx
Yamaha Racing parts - YEC http://www.yamaha-racingparts.com/

From my quick look over, I can find no sign of a replacement/high flow thermostat which further leads me to believe that they are removed

a typical thermostat below:
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
In the old days of liquid cooling it was beneficial as thermal dynamics were secondary to cosmetics in motorcycle engine cooling. There wasn't a lot of thought that went into those cooling systems, so sometimes the thermostat was an impedance.

Nowadays it depends on the bike, but in my experience it offers no gains and can cause the aforementioned cavitation issues.
There's also the possibility that the water moves too quickly through the radiator and does not have enough time to shed all of it's heat.

There's still a lot of old school racers that do it, but as I stated, I've seen more problems caused by it's removal than cured by it.
maybe then it's something passed down that many adhere to without full consideration
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:29 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK View Post
Remove the spring and middle parts and leave the outside and you solve both problems at once. The outside part is all the restriction you need.
you can see some mileage in that too
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:44 AM   #10
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I was thinking about installing a different thermotat on my bike that would keep the bike 10 degrees cooler which I thought would equate to more HP. Someone who knows alot more than I do stated unless I was just looking to blow money it was not worth the gain.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:58 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DEAN LADEN View Post
I was thinking about installing a different thermotat on my bike that would keep the bike 10 degrees cooler which I thought would equate to more HP. Someone who knows alot more than I do stated unless I was just looking to blow money it was not worth the gain.
all engines have an optimum running temperature,
the closer you are to that the better,
if this can be done with a cheap thermostat change then i'm not sure how this could be seen as blowing your money although i would take it out completely
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:41 PM   #12
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I once stuck a motor in my 750 endurance bike and for some reason the longer the race wen the hotter the bike would run. It would eventually over heat. So I finally got sick of adding water to the ****in bike. So I tore apart the cooling system. It turns out that the thermostat had been rigged to stay open allowing constant flow. So i put another thermostat in that worked and had no more problems. So to answer everyones question about this

Don't remove the FUKING thermostAt!!!!!! If u do and have a problem with over heating I'm gonna call you a dumbass for not listening
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeo36 View Post

Don't remove the FUKING thermostAt!!!!!! If u do and have a problem with over heating I'm gonna call you a dumbass for not listening
^^^LOL
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:28 PM   #14
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yet there are factory "sprint" teams that do, go figure

and semi-factory
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
yet there are factory "sprint" teams that do, go figure

and semi-factory
Key word sprint. And just an FYI most factory and serious privateer racers have bigger radiators than us normal riders and racers. So I will stand behind what I said in my last post
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeo36 View Post
Key word sprint. And just an FYI most factory and serious privateer racers have bigger radiators than us normal riders and racers. So I will stand behind what I said in my last post
we ran Pace rads eventually,
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public...orcycle/yamaha
with a high pressure cap!!

and NO thermostat
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:19 PM   #17
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I use to think that it would decrease the efficiency of the radiator because of the increased velocity. I now believe that it would be a case by case basis upon each model. You would have to decided if flow is turbulent, the coolant temp in and out, boundary layer theory, etc, etc. It would take some experimenting to decide.

Any easy solution is to ask, why would a company's engineers waste money designing the thermostat if it wasn't needed? IC engines have a specific optimum operating temperature which the thermostat may help reach and maintain.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:41 PM   #18
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If u remove the thermostat u hav to install a restrictor plate that flows just the right amount of water for proper cooling.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:42 PM   #19
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Grinchy,
We've got a saying here in the States:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

As myself and several other experienced racers have posted, removing the thermostat more often than not causes issues.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Whoopie View Post
If u remove the thermostat u hav to install a restrictor plate that flows just the right amount of water for proper cooling.
This fixes the flow rate problem but not the efficient temperature problem. I think that a lot of people believe that a cooler engine performs better which is not true.
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