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Old 04-06-2006, 08:43 AM   #1
speedismo
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6-stroke engine

for the tech-inclined, check this out

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467

i dunno if it will work, but I like the idea at least
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:53 AM   #2
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That has an extremely high coolness factor!
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:31 AM   #3
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EUREKA! old man crower has done it again
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:31 AM   #4
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:35 AM   #5
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good find kalkat
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:01 AM   #6
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Big problem...you have to carry water to inject and it has to be deionized or at least distilled to prevent build up of calcium and mag scale. Distilled would be ok but since you are creating steam you would start to build up silica deposits on valves, etc. DI would be best since it's devoid of contaminants but it's expensive and energy intensive to produce in large quantities...and water is heavier than gasoline and thus more expensive to transport. I can see DI water systems at gas stations, filling up two fuel tanks... and overall it's a great idea, but does it really get us anywhere?
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zixx6r
Big problem...you have to carry water to inject and it has to be deionized or at least distilled to prevent build up of calcium and mag scale. Distilled would be ok but since you are creating steam you would start to build up silica deposits on valves, etc. DI would be best since it's devoid of contaminants but it's expensive and energy intensive to produce in large quantities...and water is heavier than gasoline and thus more expensive to transport. I can see DI water systems at gas stations, filling up two fuel tanks... and overall it's a great idea, but does it really get us anywhere?
What you're saying is true, to an extent, and would apply more to passenger vehicles. I'm sure you read that 800-1000 pounds of radiator can be replaced by a water tank on a big rig. IF the motor is, indeed, significantly more efficient then it would almost be a moot point.

He's using distilled water but has also eluded to the fact that the engine is still well into the experimetal stages.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:20 AM   #8
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The biggest knock against the ICE is waste heat...so crower's idea addresses that well. The problem would be are you really saving anything...just like hydrogen power. The simplicity is good...but using treated water continuously (having a second fuel) is not. Nice find, I like the links. They have a link to a BMW project using a steam cycle on the site. Heat exchangers and condensers inside the engine bay...basically a little steam power plant to recycle waste heat. The payoff (reduced fuel consumption) is potentially less than Crower's engine but you dont have to worry about filling up on clean water. Most things are a tradeoff, but I have a feeling the BMW concept would come out on top as far as energy saved.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:24 AM   #9
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Yeah, I have a feeling there's going to have to be some sort of additive for the water. I have to wonder, though, would the silica deposits not be burned off during the combustion stroke?

I heard about that Beemer project. That's pretty slick.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:42 AM   #10
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You're right on about the additive, and I also agree that this 6 stroke engine will get picked up in niche markets like the trucking industry eventually if Crower can keep the power up...especially since they're feeling the pinch on fuel prices. Silica is not as big a deal as scale, but when water goes to steam it plates out everywhere. In steam-driven turbines like you find in nuke or coal-fired plants the water HAS to be DI because the silica in regular water will coat the turbine blades in a hurry and cause the balance to be off, throwing turbine blades through the housing. I saw the aftermath of that at a nuke plant when I worked in the industry. In the case of a motor, it will potentially coat engine parts and change tolerances. Once it comes out of it's dissolved state it is basically very pure sand so it wont burn. I'm sure Crower will work it out though and this idea will get it's day in the sun.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:14 AM   #11
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Hmm.. Back in '92 - '93 my uncle had me drive up to College Station to pick up a fishing pole for marlins. When I walked into the guys shop, he had a small B&S type engine sitting on the table with the 4 in 4-stroke scratched through and a 6 written over it with a sharpie. When I asked about it, the guy said he was developing it into a 6-stroke engine. So either he wasn't successful, or if he was, he may be able to claim Prior Art against this guys patent. :dontknow:

Neat tech though.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:19 AM   #12
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what would be the exhaust of steam-cycle? steam itself, right! and hardly any of it will be lost to the system. (not too much exposed surface). so if u condense it back to water and reinject it, is there a problem? i cant think of any. dunno how much power the condenser will need though..

...and it becomes a self-recycling mechanism then. put DI water into the tank ONCE and just forget it!!!!! water becomes steam and steam becomes water again and so on, with just lil losses

(ok, i know i m missing something here.. it cant be this simple... wat did i miss )
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedismo
what would be the exhaust of steam-cycle? steam itself, right! and hardly any of it will be lost to the system. (not too much exposed surface). so if u condense it back to water and reinject it, is there a problem? i cant think of any. dunno how much power the condenser will need though..

...and it becomes a self-recycling mechanism then. put DI water into the tank ONCE and just forget it!!!!! water becomes steam and steam becomes water again and so on, with just lil losses

(ok, i know i m missing something here.. it cant be this simple... wat did i miss )
#1 - the exhaust is not only emitting steam - there's a combustion stroke on there also.

#2 - The parasitic loss will be too great.... the same reason you cannot use a light-bulb and a solar panel, attach them together and expect the light-bulb to sustain itself.

Last edited by TxVrod; 04-06-2006 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:16 PM   #14
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That's possible but can get tricky since you're using the same cylinders to do the water injection as the gasoline injection...and combusting hydrocarbons is far from a clean process. The best way to do it would be to have the steam exhaust routed to a condenser, involving a valve to switch from gasoline exhaust to steam exhaust on the 6th stroke. Condense it, filter, and reinject.

The simplest way is to do it as Crower does it now, use clean water and throw the dirty exhaust steam away out the tailpipe. Trying to recycle the steam gets complicated by the burning of the gas and the impurities you introduce to the water/steam cycle which will eventually gum up the works (especially the condenser and injectors) unless you actively treat the water outside the engine, in the car. Do-able, but the more systems you add the less practical it becomes for a personal vehicle...but I think it still looks promising for big rigs. If he can sell the patent to a major then a full on engineering team can address these problems and evaluate the best combination of systems.
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Old 04-06-2006, 04:10 PM   #15
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i enjoyed reading that...My dad will absolutly love it i already know...He is alsways wroking on exp. like this in fact i think he has talked about this b4 with me....He has some trually awsome ideas just deosnts have the fuunds to try them out...
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:00 PM   #16
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^u be a good son. stop wasting time on postwhoring and go help him out!


j/k man:icon_bigg
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:17 PM   #17
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In paper sounds promising, but I don't think the idea will take off.

Remember Mazda's Miller cycle motor? a 5 cycle engine, so freaking complex compared to a 4 cycle, no one wanted to work on it. I did one time, and I won't ever touch another one. Not very reliable in the real world.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:23 PM   #18
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I'm still waiting on the water car. Remember Fossil Fuels are non-renewable we won't be running petro-based fuels in the next century I'm sure, based on world energy consumption now.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:33 PM   #19
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yeah, and I'm still waiting on my persona; plane/helicopter hibrid.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:50 PM   #20
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